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Andrew2007 Andrew2007 is offline
Posted 27th August 2019, 10:18 AM
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Salmonella, E-coli?


Hi

I have a young pigeon that has salmonella and e-coli, he's been prescribed Para tablet's by the Belgica Clinic. One tablet twice a day for ten days, they said if the tablets were to make him vomit then give half a tablet twice a day instead which I've had to do.

He hasn't been eating for the last five day's so I've been hand feeding formula, three day's ago I switched to the Harrisons Bird Food Recovery Formula, yesterday I noticed that his crop wasn't emptying so I performed a crop flush. I then gave him some apple sauce which managed to go through his system overnight.

I decided to feed him peas and seed (soaked) instead.

But the concern is that his back end of bottom is is moving in and out (cramping?) suggesting something isn't right, I thought it was the fact that he's not passing much in the way of droppings and was having cramps or something?

The Belgica Clinic mentioned his liver and breathing, but he doesn't have his mouth open. I thought they may have suggested changing the medication but they didn't.

Any advice please as this has got me worried?

https://vimeo.com/356222407

Last edited by Andrew2007; 27th August 2019 at 11:54 AM..
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Ladygrey Ladygrey is offline
Posted 27th August 2019, 11:31 AM
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Hmmm, seems his breathing is labored. I would water down the Harrisonís so it is runny to get more hydration.
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Andrew2007 Andrew2007 is offline
Posted 27th August 2019, 12:01 PM
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His breathing is laboured to some extent.

Is it possible he has a yeast infection or candida as that can obviously prevent the crop from emptying, I cannot see any in the mouth?

Last edited by Andrew2007; 27th August 2019 at 04:29 PM..
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Jay3 Jay3 is offline
Posted 27th August 2019, 10:37 PM
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Don't flush the crop unless no other way. Usually warmed baby apple sauce mixed with a bit of warm water will help things to get moving. How young is the baby? Try mixing some of the applesauce into the formula when you feed him.
What is the drug, and how many mg in the med you are giving him? If the med makes him sick, then feed him first, then give the med. Sometimes a couple of drops of Pepto Bismol given 30 minutes before medicating will help to stop the vomiting also. Are you sure none of the food went down the wrong pipe?
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Andrew2007 Andrew2007 is offline
Posted 28th August 2019, 02:29 AM
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He's around 10 week's old now.

I'm not aware of any fluid going down the wrong pipe. The Para tablet's appear to be the same as Parastop, unfortunately the manufacturer doesn't publish the ingredients or strength etc which is unfortunate to say the least.

He's done plenty poops since last night and the apple sauce which is good but he's also regurgitated some of the peas he had yesterday morning.

The Para tablet's can result in regurgitation but what I have to address is the reason why the crop isn't emptying, could this be a result of the salmonella/e - coli or could it be canker or a yeast infection?

I haven't no idea if the Para tablet's will prevent canker or yeast?

Thanks

Last edited by Andrew2007; 28th August 2019 at 03:00 AM..
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Ladygrey Ladygrey is offline
Posted 28th August 2019, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew2007 View Post
His breathing is laboured to some extent.

Is it possible he has a yeast infection or candida as that can obviously prevent the crop from emptying, I cannot see any in the mouth?
Yes , it is very possible. You would use nystatin for yeast. Donít give the para tab before feeding.. try once a day at night.. feed in the mornings and afternoon, get some nystatin. .
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Andrew2007 Andrew2007 is offline
Posted 29th August 2019, 01:52 AM
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Thanks Ladygrey

His crop wouldn't empty again so I gave him some acv mixed at 3 tablespoons/gallon and that's cleared it overnight which is a relief, I think I'll keep him on liquid's for a couple of day's.

We have a product called Vetark Critical Care Formula which is a powder but only used in very small quantities with water so it will be very watery
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Jay3 Jay3 is offline
Posted 1st September 2019, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew2007 View Post
He's around 10 week's old now.

I'm not aware of any fluid going down the wrong pipe. The Para tablet's appear to be the same as Parastop, unfortunately the manufacturer doesn't publish the ingredients or strength etc which is unfortunate to say the least.

He's done plenty poops since last night and the apple sauce which is good but he's also regurgitated some of the peas he had yesterday morning.

The Para tablet's can result in regurgitation but what I have to address is the reason why the crop isn't emptying, could this be a result of the salmonella/e - coli or could it be canker or a yeast infection?

I haven't no idea if the Para tablet's will prevent canker or yeast?

Thanks

If anything, the Para tablets will cause yeast, and no, they will not prevent canker. Canker can cause a blockage which will cause the crop to not empty well. And yeast can make it not work also. So could be either. Canker is pretty common with young ones though. Right around weaning age. If the crop is not emptying, I would guess canker or yeast. I would treat for canker. When an antibiotic is being used, then it is a good idea to use something to prevent yeast also while doing the antibiotic treatment (Para tablets). Also they often get canker when ill with something else.
How did the vet decide that it was salmonella and e-coli?
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Last edited by Jay3; 1st September 2019 at 08:50 PM..
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Andrew2007 Andrew2007 is offline
Posted 2nd September 2019, 01:02 AM
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I had sent the poop away to be tested Jay, it came back as showing Hairworm, Salmonella and E-Coli. I treated for Hairworm first of all and the following day I started on the Para tablet's.

I've spoken to the Lab and they're of the opinion that it wouldn't be canker or yeast but it would be the E-Coli that's responsible for the crop not emptying, they asked me to switch from the Para tablet's onto Belgamco to see if that'll resolve the problem.

So, at present I'm giving him some acv (3 table spoons/gallon) followed an hour later by a 1/4 pepto bismol and the Belgamco tablet and hand feeding some seed.

Wth him being given Para Tablet's followed by Belgamco that'll be harsh on his liver but I would assume that giving him some Baytril for any possible yeast would be safe as that works on contact. On the other hand the metronidazole is a systematic medication that would be processed by the liver so my only concern would he be strong enough to withstand that treatment?

Thanks
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Jay3 Jay3 is offline
Posted 2nd September 2019, 06:46 PM
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The lab doesn't know. When a bird, especially a young bird has an illness, it is very common for them to get canker. If they can just dismiss that fact, then they don't know what they are talking about. Canker is often the cause of a blockage in the crop, and canker is very common in young birds. Yeast is another common reason for crop blockage. You really need to learn more about illness and the meds they use for what, and their side affects. Baytril is not given for yeast. Baytril will very often cause yeast. For yeast, you would use Nystatin or Medistatin or something like that. Baytril is an antibiotic, and antibiotics can often cause a yeast infection.
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Andrew2007 Andrew2007 is offline
Posted 3rd September 2019, 06:34 AM
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I don't know why I said Baytril, I am aware that it's a wide spectrum antibiotic

I did mean to say Nystatin which I ordered last Thursday from a vet that supplies a wildlife rescue where I volunteer. I ordered Nystatin and Itraconazole and hopefully they'll get that in today which can be used to treat a yeast infection.

I can also get some metronidazole for any possible canker, I also have Spartrix tablet's which I would and have used in the past at a much higher dose than what the manufacturer specifies.

His crop is emptying but it does feel as if there's gas being trapped, he is eating himself now and had a good feed this morning.

Last edited by Andrew2007; 3rd September 2019 at 10:15 AM..
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