[CRinWP]

Can someone please help me identify this cyst on my baby pij?

It showed up, very acutely, on day 6 after hatching; it wasn't there the night before but was there the next morning. There were two hatchlings, this one and his sibling. The sibling died within the first 36-hours.

[/IMG]

After some research, I learned about the various salmonellae strains that can kill hatchlings and cause this type of sore to erupt. But none of the pictures of cysts I found on the various pigeon sites (including this one) look like the cyst on Bob. The only pictures I could find of paratyphus cysts are on adult birds and they were much larger and black. Also, his joints don't appear to have any swelling.

He has been doubling his size as expected, but I think his stools have too much clear water in them, as though he dropped his stool in a water puddle; good spiral but in a lot of clear water with it. He also seems to have to bear down more than the other birds I've raised have had too, as though he's constipated.

His parents were not filling his crop either. I have removed him and I'm hand-feeding him and his appetite has significantly improved. He did not eat much the first few hand feedings but after I started mixing in a little Duramyacin-10 (Tetracycline Hydrochloride powder), he is voracious.

As a holistic treatment, I thinned some grapefruit seed extract, mixed it into some warm triple-antibiotic, and smeared a little in the center of it.

The thought did cross my mind that it could be an infection caused by a claw wound from one of his parents. The only thing is his mother also presents a watery stool too.

Has anyone seen this kind of growth on a baby pij?

 

[minimonkey]

It doesn't look like paratyphoid at all, to me-- those boils show up on the joints (they're actually swollen with joint fluid).

My first guess is that this is canker that has grown through the crop wall. Parents can pass it on to the young, or it can infect the young through an unhealed navel. Canker would also explain the difficulty passing droppings.

The urates are yellowed, which often accompanies canker. Do the poops smell bad????

Have you treated for canker of late? Does the bird have a smell to it at all?

Canker can be invisible to the eye, and show up internally -- so you won't necessarily be able to see it in the parents, but it would be a good idea to check their throats in any event.

 

[minimonkey]

If this *is* canker, you can grind up metronidazole or spartrix and apply it as a paste to the lesion externally, as well as treating the baby with the drug orally. Be aware that the crop wall may be breached, so you don't want to try to remove this thing in any way -- treat it, let it dry up, and let it fall off on its own.

Obviously, I'm not positive this is canker -- it could be a bacterial infection or something else, but I think it's worthwhile following up on the possibility -- it seems the most likely to me.

 

[spirit wings]

I would of thought is was canker also, I would treat him with multiple meds.

 

[CRinWP]

Spirit Wings and Minimonkey,

Thank you for getting back to me so quickly!

I had checked the baby's mouth for the obvious canker that I saw in pictures but had not considered the rest of the info you just shared with me as I am too new to pigeon husbandry. Thank you so much, I will call the local feed/stock store and find the Spartrix and Metronidazole.

Initially, I did explore the growth with a clean probe but could see where trying to lance this growth would be a bad idea for the reasons you also mentioned Minimonkey. That is what worried me the most; the baby starving slowly due to crop infection. What I did find is that the growth is as hard and solid as scar tissue.

It has started to reduce with the application of the grapefruit seed extract, by approximately 1mm as of this morning, but I also realize the extract is only topical and doesn't cure the underlying infection.

Do Tetracylcines work for these infections? That is what I have on hand and what is recommended by the local Vets but they tell me they don't really treat birds often. However, I will give them credit that within 12 hours of starting Duramycin-10 treatments and hand-feeding, the baby's droppings have increased tremendously in volume, his appetite has now become (normal) voracious, and the stool fluid volume has significantly reduced; but that seems almost too fast of a cure. I am skeptic that it was absorbed into the fiber of the hand-feeding formula instead.

Here is a dropping from last night at 2am:

Even in this solid dropping, the urates do still look more yellowish than pure white.

I just am happy his is a very hungry birdie when he eats now

Question: What does canker smell like? I have noticed a strong pickle-like-acidic smell in the cage as of late. So, I removed the birds and pressure-washed everything (the cage and all stands/accessories) with a bleach mixture and left it to dry in the sun. I also soaked the cage liners with a Cavicide spray and let them dry before replacing the birds.

What else should I be doing?

Thanks again, ~C.R.

 

[CRinWP]

Stool update:

As of 13:00 today, 18-hours into Duramycin treatments, Bob is up to about one stool per hour and this is the latest:

Growth is reduced by about .75-1mm:

Bob:

 

[minimonkey]

A "strong pickle like acidic smell" is a pretty accurate description of the canker smell in my opinion. It's a kind of sour smell that almost smells like a chemical, to my nose, rather than something of biological origin. It's really a strange smell -- not like anything else I've encountered.

Canker is actually a protozoal infection, rather than bacterial, so tetracycline won't treat it. It needs a class of medications known as nitroimidazoles -- they are antiprotozoal meds that also have some antibiotic activity.

The most commonly used of those are metronidazole, ronidazole, and carnidazole (Spartrix). Most feed stores don't sell these, but all the major pigeon houses do --

Jedd's is a little pricier than some places, but they ship very fast.

http://www.jedds.com/-strse-Medicine->>-Canker/Categories.bok

I'd suggest treating your whole flock for canker. Dimetridazole is the riskiest of the canker drugs, so I wouldn't suggest that one unless nothing else works -- but Rondizole is very safe, and so is metronidazole.

It's always a good idea to keep at least two different canker meds on hand, since it is often resistant to treatment.

The grapefruit seed extract was a good call -- it does seem to have some action against canker.

 

[minimonkey]

I must say, Bob's droppings look much better -- so it's likely there was something bacterial going on in addition to probable canker. Bacterial infections and canker tend to occur at the same time.

Since you are getting results with the GSE, I'd keep using it externally for the time being.

Just be sure to mix it with something, as it can be a bit harsh on the skin.

Canker dries up and gets really hard, like a rock, when it heals. Don't try to detach the lesions -- they have roots into the skin, and can cause a lot of bleeding when removed too soon. They will fall off on their own after they heal up, generally -- though a growth of this size may need a little help later on.

For now, I'd suggest getting some canker meds asap for all your birds.

 

[minimonkey]

One last post from me -- when pigeons get an infection, it doesn't fill up with pus the way a human lesion does, so it can't be lanced in the same way a human boil can.

Pigeon pus is very solid -- at it's most liquid, it can feel a bit like cottage cheese or scrambled eggs -- and it can become incredibly hard and rock like.

Generally, as a localized infection heals, the pus-like plug will find it's way out of the body through the skin ... and it will come off in a big lump.

I can't seem to enlarge today's lesion picture enough to see it very well -- is it possible to post a bigger one?

 

[CRinWP]

Minimonkey,

I've gone back through and fixed the photos. I'm using Google+ Photos for a picture server and still learning it , LoL.

You described his abscess perfectly. I would call it a dense Cheerio under the skin, with a distinct orifice in the center and it is that center (white spot) that is reducing its diameter daily. I bought the GSE for myself as a planer's wart and skin tag remover and I know it can sting/burn pretty severely in raw form, you are definitely right about that. I have been cutting it with a coconut lipid based antibiotic cream I buy from the holistic store here. He seems to tolerate it very well.

The smell is dead on, and it has been acute, since they laid the eggs actually. I've had the parents since they were poult sized and they have never smelled before.

Which begs the question, what happened? What changed? Why did this start when they laid eggs? Are the protozoa triggered by hormonal changes? I've been feeding them the same foods, using the same water source, I haven't changed anything but still one chick died in less than two days and Bob is having these issues.

Again, thanks to you and spirit wings and I will now look for these medications.

~C.R.

 

[minimonkey]

Regarding canker, and what causes it --

Trichomoniasis, the protozoa that causes canker, is present in the digestive system of most birds to some degree. Their immune systems keep it in check, and it doesn't necessarily cause disease as long as it stays at low levels.

When something stresses the bird -- laying, illness, weather changes, etc., it can allow the organism to get a foothold and begin to overgrow.

In this case, it may well have been the breeding that did it -- that puts a strain on both the male and the female, since both sit the eggs, and both produce crop milk.

But, since the little one is responding well to the tetracycline, I rather suspect there's some kind of bacterial infection present as well, and it might not be a bad idea to treat the parents with tetracycline also, even if they aren't showing symptoms.

That sounds like a great antibiotic preparation -- I love coconut oil for so many things!

Keep us updated....

How many birds do you have? Is it just the two parents and the baby, or do you have others?

 

[minimonkey]

I just saw the bigger photo from today (thanks for fixing it!) -- and yes, that definitely looks like canker to me. Treating it externally with a paste of anti-canker meds will probably be pretty effective, along with the oral dosing.

Canker finds its way into the body through the digestive tract, but it can sometimes worm its way out the skin like that, or up through sinuses, etc. So, assuming this IS canker, it has penetrated the crop wall.

Occasionally these things leave a perforated crop of the lesion is removed before it has fully healed up -- so if you notice the baby picking at it, try to dissuade him from picking it off too soon.

 

[CRinWP]

Ok, then it is sort of like e.coli in the human digestive system, it is in everyone and safe is it stays in place and doesn't get introduced to the system from an external source. That makes sense to me. I've spent most of my life as a Medic.

Well, as for other birds...the number of pet birds is:
(1) Yellow-Shouldered Green Amazon (Tiki)
(1) African Gray (Cletus)
(1) Ruby-Crested Amazon (Jobu)
(15) Zebra Finches (from 3 originals through 7 generations of offspring)
(7) chickens for good fresh eggs for me and the other birds
(3) Feral Colorado Rock Pigeons

The thing is, I was local public safety and pretty much everyone around here knows me. Everyone also knows I grew up as a pseudo-farmboy in Nebraska (very small ranchette) and raised chickens, ducks, geese, pheasants, quail, and the occasional wild breed.

So, when the Waldo Canyon (Colorado) Wildfire kicked off, every high school kid in town was bringing me wild baby and adult birds to rehab (thanks to the girlfriend's daughters). By the end of it all I had treated/rehabbed: (23) Barn Swallows; (16) Cliff Swallows, (3) Wilson's Warblers; (2) Red Winged Blackbirds; (1) Robin; (2) Stellar's Jays; (1) Cooper's Hawk; (5) chipping sparrows; and (1) Colorado Ringed Rock Dove... So, like I was saying in my previous posts, I am confused because I am the best house-cleaner you'll ever meet. We never had problems with ALL of those other birds. However, Jobu was found abandoned on the side of the highway in his cage and the local Sheriff's Office brought him to me. He appeared healthy but died suddenly and I wonder if he wasn't a carrier of something. I had a necropsy performed and all it revealed was congenital defects. I'm pretty sure he was an illegal import.

Fortunately, I had given up the public safety gig to go back to grad school and do more with the National Guard, so I had the time to actually care for the birds and enjoyed them tremendously; very life enriching. Astoundingly, I managed to keep a 27% attrition rate among the wild birds and was able to later to release 73% of those I had taken in.

Here's a picture of "Buddy", my best-buddy Cliff Swallow riding on the steering wheel of my car taking in the sites:

Thanks again, I am searching for those meds right now. Bob is sleeping soundly here next to the keyboard. He seems to like Bach. LoL

 

[CRinWP]

MEDPET 4-in-1 Powder

Has anyone had any experience with this medication powder? It seems a good way to hit protozoa and bacteria at the same time, from a couple of angels. Please advise. ~C.R.

For the treatment of Canker (Trichomoniasis), E.Coli, Paratyphoid (Salmonella) and Coccidiosis in pigeons and cage birds. Easy to dose water-soluble powder. Safe and economical. Ideal for treatment when a firm diagnosis is still pending. The ultimate quality 4-in-1 powder available.

Available sizes: 100g

EACH 100g POWDER CONTAINS: Furaltadone 20% , Ronidazole 7% , Excipients to 100g

 

[CRinWP]

3-in-1; 4-in-1; 5-in-1 powders

Oh good night...there is more of this stuff available then one can shake a stick at

Minimonkey, Jedd's imports this stuff from South Africa, seems to have a decent reputation on the internet but expires in 90-days. Which tells me it is actually good active ingredients but there are several types. I am thinking about getting the 5-in-1 just so I can treat everyone in the house and try to nip this thing before it jumps to my other birds. What is your opinion?

From Jedd's:

ALL IN ONE

SKU: A1315

All In One is a powder that gives us the best value and covers the largest range of health issues.

Coccidiosis is probably the most common pigeon health problem and All In One contains Amprolium and is listed as both a treatment and a preventative for Coccidiosis. Canker (Trichomoniasis) another common pigeon health issue is both preventable and treatable. All In One contains the safe drug, Ronidazol, an effective drug. The third most common health problem is worms, and All In One contains Levamisole which treats for most worms with the exception of Tape worms. Tylan is the drug of choice for respiratory and you’ll find it in All In One. The fifth ingredient includes pro-biotics to rebuild gut bacteria and relieve stress.

Treatment: 2 teaspoons per gal for 5 days. Makes 28-30 gallons. 200 grams

As always, thank you! ~C.R.

 

[minimonkey]

Yeah, welcome to the world of pigeon meds!

You're better off avoiding the all-in-one medications -- they're often dosed too low to really eradicate anything, and you also end up medicating unnecessarily for some things, and potentially increasing antibiotic resistance.

For canker, here is what I suggest:

http://www.jedds.com/Detail.bok?no=511

and

http://www.jedds.com/-strse-523/MEDITRICH-100-tablets-(Medpet)/Detail.bok

 

[CRinWP]

Ah, that makes sense too. Ok, I will go with solo meds then. Thanks!

 

[minimonkey]

If you are going to be keeping pigeons, I'd also suggest picking up some doxycycline and some Baytril (enrofloxacin) to keep on hand.

You can get those here:

http://www.siegelpigeons.com/catalog-paratyphoid.html

Their generic for Baytril is enroflaxyn

and

http://www.jedds.com/-strse-482/DOXYBIRD-TABS-(Medpet)/Detail.bok


Jedd's doesn't carry enrofloxacin, but Siegel's does.

 

[minimonkey]

Yes, canker is a bit like E Coli in humans, as you described, but it doesn't go into the blood stream. It can burrow through tissue, though, and come out the sinuses, eye sockets, nares, and through the crop lining as with your little guy.

I'm glad you have so much experience rehabbing! Very impressive!

Pigeons are a bit different than other birds, but most of the same principles apply.

The one other thing you are likely to run into fairly frequently, if you take in feral pigeon rescues, is coccidiosis. That's another protozoal infection, but it causes primarily enteritis.

Most people seem to favor amprolium for that, but the sulfa drugs are also effective.

http://www.jedds.com/-strse-Medicine->>-Coccidiosis-cln-Amprolium/Categories.bok


There are a number of places that carry pigeon meds on the web -- I'm linking you to Jedd's because they ship quickly, and your little classical music buff could use some Spartrix and Metronidazole, pronto --

Honestly, I end up ordering from about 5 different places to get the best prices for everything I want and need.

 

[minimonkey]

If you can get a weight for your little guy when the meds arrive, we can help you figure out dosing for him. He's very cute!

I love the picture of Buddy!

One other thing to be aware of with pigeon rescues -- pigeons can carry avian chlamydia (the cause of psittacosis), which can be treated, but I believe that psittacines are a lot more vulnerable to it than pigeons are -- so be sure to keep any new birds quarantined well away from your parrots, as well as from your other pigeons.

Just general good hygiene and quarantining of new or sick birds is sufficient to protect the others.