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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This is a slippery slope, but I'd like to pose this question to everyone.

What do you think is a fair price assestment on proven foundation quality stock?

(Keep in mind that situations may vary, i.e., a young flier wanting to start up versus a guy who likes to spend considerable money for birds.)
 

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I fail horribly at pricing things :p But you know we all want as cheap as we can get, without sacrificing quality!
 

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When you say "proven pair of foundation" how do you define that? The proven pair off of Joe nobody in small town USA vs 5 lofts and 50 birds is going to be alot different than a top flyer against 200+ lofts and thousands of birds each week. Has this pair produced winners? How many and at what distance against how many lofts? How many ACE pigeons and HOF pigeons have they produced in the last 2-3 years? You have to ask yourself "Why would someone sell their foundation pair" Did they die, are they getting out of the sport, divorce? Everyone I know would never sell their foundation pair at any price if they are still in the sport. I would be very leary of anyone claiming to be selling their foundation pair at any price.
 

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I think because it is what it would be worth to me is about $1,000 per bird. But remember, that is just my opinion, and I have very little knowledge.
 

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If really depends on the bird, what it has done, and what is in the bank account, and what I can afford to spend!!! Each bird has its own price. It is like racing, ask 100 flyers how to raise winners and get 100 answers.
 

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? Everyone I know would never sellI would be very leary of anyone claiming to be selling their foundation pair at any price.
Well put that in perspective, and I could see what you are driving at....

"If I am a multi-millionaire, and I have a foundation pair that I can sell the youngsters for several thousands as fast as I can breed them .... one should be very leary of this person selling this pair at any price?"

Example:
Why would a European fancier sell a foundation hen for $60,000 when each of her youngster command $7500 and more ?
Why would a US breeder sell a foundation hen (and keep the cock) as part of a package deal for $75K (with several other "top" breeders)? These youngsters were being sold for $3500 and above.
Should I go on to buy these youngsters from the new buyer?

On the other hand, I have a foundation pair that I put together by pure luck that I paid $2500 individually. I won't sell for 50K but would be hard to turn down 100K. Small guys like me have a price, especially in this economy.

Big guys in the sport - especially if they are advertising (like they do in RPD) that this hit pair produced many winners for different ones, and that hit pair produced $200K in winners, $300K in selling young, etc... and then turn right around, break up the foundation pair and sell one of the birds... definitely raises my eyebrows!

The power of marketing ....
 

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Its all about luck everyone has good pigeons these days. And everyone has their own foundation birds. Pedigrees drive everyone nuts. Piece of paper $10,000 the bird $20.
 

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Pigeon racing has really changed in the last 25-35 years. years ago real pigeon flyers either gave-loaned-or raised other flyers birds. ALL for just a "THANK-YOU". Now you have to give them at least 1 beer -well maybe a coffee or tea -just to come to your house/loft for a visit. Years ago 2-3-4 of us would just go loft hopping -unannounced- for a good visit-tell lie's[not the truth]-maybe look at some birds--maybe not.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I guess I'd readdress this question. I'm talking about the combine/concourse level where average number young birds are in the 500-1,200 in young bird races and in old bird racing where the average number of old birds are in the 300-1,000 birds.
 
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i would like to add that yes as long as they are proven they would be worth lots more but buying offspring off any pair of birds good or not is a crap shoot ,so how does one add a dollar sign to that unless they are throwing off winners left and right :rolleyes:
 

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Something to think about is that I have seen proven one loft winners or birds in the top 10 go for $100. Vern my mentor had a bird in a medium size race that was 1st on 4 training tosses equal first in two of three races. The 22nd bird on the 300 mile race and a bird off his best Hen, not receive a bid. Others with less a record and GFL bands were going for Thousands. I was going to bid on the bird, but like many of us out there, my wife would kill me if I spent $100 on a bird.

I would think a proven combine winner off a good family should hit in the $500 range give or take $500. In other words I think the market is not dictated so well as what the bird did, but who bred the thing.

Randy
 

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Value is always in the eye of the investor. I don't think it is unreasonable to invest several thousand dollars in birds with proven history to start a serious racing colony. This of course is just my opinion.

When I started back I knew that there would be many aspects of racing that would factor into my success, one of them being the quality of my stock. My goal was and is to be successful in the young bird one loft races so I went to someone that had proven their bird's ability in that vein. I knew that my own handling and care would factor largely into my success locally. Unfortunatly, that has proven to be true so far! However, so far my efforts in one loft races are promising. By going with established stock I, at least to some extent, eliminated one of the variables to racing success and this was worth a few dollars to me.

Another thing to keep in mind is that I wasn't interested in creating another branch of what local flyers had already created. To me, much of the fun and excitement is in creating something myself that people around here were not neccessarily familiar with. This is why I did not seek out birds from local flyers, much to the agrivation of many folks down here. I wanted, and still desire to create something myself. That was one of the motivating factors for me. I know that this will not be the case with many. Perhaps it is not even the most efficient method, but I have my reasons and am willing to pay the price while I navigate the learning curve. Hence my loggin name on this forum.

You have to decide what is right for you and only you know what motivates and drives you. How's that for a cop out answer!

Dan
 

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I guess I'd readdress this question. I'm talking about the combine/concourse level where average number young birds are in the 500-1,200 in young bird races and in old bird racing where the average number of old birds are in the 300-1,000 birds.
In my combine of 300 to 1500 birds (from 500 miles down to 125 miles), a Federation winning family would have birds sold locally for around $200 to $500 a bird. If the breeder wants more money, he would have to go to the auction sites and have some brothers/sisters that won in the one loft races.

I believe locally we should help one another more than we do in terms of pricing.
 

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This is a slippery slope, but I'd like to pose this question to everyone.

What do you think is a fair price assestment on proven foundation quality stock?

(Keep in mind that situations may vary, i.e., a young flier wanting to start up versus a guy who likes to spend considerable money for birds.)
I had a double major in college, micro and macro economics. So, I will give you your answer from an economic perspective. The market will determine what a "fair" price is for something. You can go onto PIPA or iPigeon and see what the market has determined is a "fair" price for a proven racer and/or breeder.

I was a stock broker for a bank, before I do what I do now. And the same question could be posed for what is a "fair" price for a stock. And that price is determined by what buyers and sellers agree on, and as you know, that is a moving price, and so it is I believe with racing pigeons.

So, it is interesting to review the answers to this question, but I doubt you will have any better idea as to what a certain bird is worth, or what it should sell for. If all the reader's of this thread were to bid on a particular bird, you might get all different bid's, because not only is beauty in the eye of the beholder, so is value. And then you have the aspect of ability to pay. And the seller's need to sell.

And just to further complicate matters, especially when dealing in auction situations, some times other factors come into play, such as emotions of desire and ego. I once bid up a bird I really wanted, perhaps it was bid $10,000 over it's real "value", because I wanted it !!! But, the winning bid went to some millionaire in Tawain, because he wanted it more, and had the ability to fulfill his desire more then me.

So the real answer for you, is what do you want, and how much are you willing and able to pay. And beyond that, it may be very difficult for any of us, to answer that question for you. I have seen birds that guys paid $3500 to $4500 for, that I would not have given 50 cents for, and I have seen birds
birds that were purchased very cheap, that I would have paid 25x's more for the bird. So, IMHO, I don't have the slighest idea how to really answer your question other then to say something like...it depends.
 

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Well. I will echo Warrens sentiments. But more briefly.

A bird is like anything alse in life. It is worth what you can get for it.

There is no "proper, fair or correct" price. If Brad Pitt wants Warrens Ludo, then he will get it. He might have to actually spend a whole weeks lunch money, but if he wants it, he will get it.

I believe that the run of the mill Combine young bird off of a winner, should go for no more than 100 bucks. But if you are buying a bird that has actually won several races or bred young'uns that have won many races. Then the price is how much will you pay.

As to someone selling their "best breeders", I agree it would be an unusual thing. However, it happens. Take for instance the Ludo Claessens sell out.

It happens. But not often.

I just bought two birds that did well in two major races. One in the Mercedes Classic and the other in the Flamingo. They each cost me 100 dollars. They did not win those races, but both finished in the money. But they were purchased from an acquaintance and not a stranger. Not a friend by any stretch of the imagination though. Just someone I know slightly.

If you are not in a rush, you can get good birds for decent prices. But usually from acquaintances and not from internet auctions. Great birds can come from fellow flyers for nothing but a thank you, also.

I wish I had back most of the money I have spent on internet auctions, when I was first starting out. My best birds were gifts from fellow club members.
 

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I need multiple pairs every year to stay near the top. I also don't know anyone that did it with one pair of pigeons. Maybe there are pairs that people start families with but that is not all they are flying. They probably have some of this and some of that in their loft also. At every loft I have seen this is the way it is so if there is a pair of pigeons that it is the only pair you will ever need why does everyone have all these other ones around? I don't care how good the pair is it will not breed all good pigeons. Good luck finding the one pair you need. Oh, and I believe the only way you will ever find this "if there is such a thing" may be to breed it yourself.
 

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I think the value of birds depend on why you raise homers. If one was to breed for one loft money races, or purchase as a business venture, they would put up a higher price on a bird than the breeder who is in it for the fun. The driving force behind a price is also dependent on the price the breeder paid for the breeders. If I paid $5000 for a bird or pair, it would be hard for me to sell a youngster for $100.
 

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You have a point of course. But a couple of things. Just because you purchased a $5000 bird or pair of birds, does not mean they were worth that. Nor does it mean that their offspring are worth a lot. Did they produce any winners? That would mean something.

Sellin a bird for 100 bucks is better than not selling any birds. I would say. If your pair was unproven, then their offspring are a huge gamble. Ludo or no Ludo blood.

Birds "bred for stock" are notorious in racing circles.
 

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Of course, after I find out they suck...give me all the $100 you want. I'll even give you two for that price, hehe.

But seriously, if a bird(s) was priced for $5000, it would mean they had a pretty good parent(s), or, they are good themselves, and you'd have a high percentage of breeding out of them.
 
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