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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello,

As a reminder I live in Montenegro, Podgorica, so no use of proposing clinics and vets, and I have already visited two of them.

Since my last discussion I had a lot of sick, injured and baby pigeons but this is completely strange for both me and the vets.

A woman brought to me a baby pigeon that fell from a building. Baby is about 17 to 18 days old. Upon arrival baby was very lethargic, very thin, it had the worst poop ever, very green, slimy, unbelievably smelly just like a sewer and a lot of blood in poop. It was calling weakly for food. I fed it and gave it enrofloxacin as the only thing I had as it was evening, and in 2 hours probiotic. I watched the dose carefully for enrofloxacin. The baby responded great, the poop became normal in about 24h with just occasional spot of blood and in next 24h everything was great. Baby was calling for food, very active, poop was perfect. I then noticed that it has one weak leg. I took the baby to the vet (weekend passed so we were due to go there anyway) and vet suggested to change the meds to tylosine and continue with probiotic. He did 4 x-rays of the leg and it took 2 vets to decide what the problem was. The leg popped out of the socket - femur, but it was an old injury so the head of the femur was completely dissolved and there was some inflammation. Vet said that in time a false joint will form and the baby will use the leg. The baby is not standing even thou it should start standing a bit but the vet said it is a good thing to spare that leg for some additional time. So we returned from the vet and baby remained active, happy and eating a lot, gaining weight etc. but it completely lost its voice! It was a bit cold at the vet but i was holding the baby in my hands and also later on was standing by the sterilization machine where it was warm. It is very hot in Podgorica. I looked at the throat it is clean, there is no mucus. A completely normal pigeon except for the fact that when he wants to make a sound just air comes out like you are pumping a tire. he occasionally makes a very weak sound but mostly nothing. The day the baby arrived its voice was OK, but as days passed it became less and less audible and now its just a swish of air trought the mount.

Any advice?
Thank you
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
It is important to add that I also noticed that the baby is loosing feathers that are still growing. Just small feathers here and there, I find 3 to 4 each day in its box. I can't see any bold spots, but feathers are falling out.
 

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Can you post a pic of the baby? Your vets don't know much about birds. False socket will form? Don't know what he is talking about. Will probably end up having to lose the leg. The vet didn't give anything for pain or inflamation?
Blood in and smelly could be coccidiosis or even worms. Are you sure he doesn't have mites? Feathers coming out could be mites or vitamin deficiency.
Have you checked way down his throat to see if anything is there?
What are you feeding him? How are you feeding him, and how much? How often?
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Hello,

If you seen the vets here and listen to what you know you would be shocked. Their knowledge about birds was 0 when I started helping wild birds and now is about 5% and I am talking about the best vet in Montenegro....

Here is the picture:
https://postimg.org/image/hwciic7rd/

It is bad. It is now night time and all the babies are sleeping, I will post better pictures tomorrow. What is important is that the baby is eating very well and the poop is now perfect. I am feeding a mixture of high protein puppy food, pigeon pellets and formula for hand feeding baby birds (Orlux Versele Laga). Everything is ground, soaked in warm water until it is a fine liquid a little less dense than ketchup. I feed him until the crop is full and then each time the crop is empty which is about 3 times a day. He eats almost 20 ml in one go. Food is warm and fresh made each time.

I feed him with a "bottle method". I recently made a video about it on you tube to be a first guide here in Montenegro because people don't know anything. You can see how I feed pigeons here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpzAhmD5T-8

It is in Montenegrin but you can see the method on 6:23.

I also watched him closely today and I think he is loosing most of his feathers from the back of his head, there the feathers are a bit scarce. He was loosing much more when he arrived and now it is less and less. I have a spray for external parasites based on coconut oild, it is for birds, I can spray him tomorrow. He is here just for 3 days now, and for me the bloody poop and the leg were priorities.

Now is the loss of voice. I am very concerned about that. I looked deep in the throat with a flash light and all is clear, nice and pink, no sore spots or anything. He also couldn't eat anything besides food which is very finely ground. he is in a box on tissues and with a warm bottle and nothing goes in that could be picked up and swallowed or harm the baby. he is in my room at all times on my sight.
 

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Seems like you are doing a great job. I'm glad his throat is clear. Make sure he is on a surface that is not slippery enough to let his legs slip out from under him. And include some probiotics in his food. Even yogurt with live bacteria. After any antibiotics he will need a few days of probiotics to replenish the good gut bacteria that the antibiotic has killed. Good job!
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Hello,

Thank you but I don't think he is well.

1st he still doesn't have voice. He tries to squeak but all that can be heard is just rush of air.

2nd when I for example stroke his head and neck one or two feathers just fall off, like they are barely holding. these are feathers that are still growing.

I gave him a supplement for birds in his food this morning, it contains vitamins and amino acids. Also I sprayed him with a solution for external parasites even thou I could not find a single one - the solution is natural and based on coconut oil so it will not do any harm. It is even good for dry skin in birds.

Poop and appetite is well. I gave him some peas yesterday, but they are still in the crop today. So this is also very concerning. I will not give any more peas that is for sure... Peas were frozen and I defrosted them by soaking for 30 min in warm water, I squished most of them but left 2-3 small ones whole, and I can still feel them in the crop. But the liquid food is all gone.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Pigeon on video is not the same on as one on the picture. I am currently hand feeding 3 pigeons, small ones are great, but this big one arrived just 3 days ago and is having the problems. I will post better pictures of him today.
 

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I would treat for canker. Metronidazole 30 mg once daily, for 10 days. If the crop is not working well, or is slow, give him warmed baby applesauce mixed with a bit of warm water. The baby applesauce doesn't have all the sugar the regular one does. That will usually help to move things along. Canker is common, and if stress or illness is present, it would be common for the trich level to go up and cause canker. That can also cause a blockage in the crop so that things don't pass well. Maybe baby strained peas would be better.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
OK, I just took the baby out and took a very detailed look on the Sunlight. I noticed it has a small swelling on the beak, on the outer side, nothing in the mouth and nothing in the throat. Swelling is on the same side as the wounded leg so I presume it is from the fall or who knows. It is not inflamed it is gray and looks old.

I also noticed that the feathers are falling only from one place and it is the back of the head. There is a small bald patch under the feathers there so if I raise the surrounding feathers I can see it. It is not red or inflamed just bald. Feathers falling from there are dry and thin. I put a dab of the coconut oil spray on there just in case.

Here are the pictures of the baby this morning, the fallen feather and the back of the head. I wanted to take a photo of the bald spot but as soon as I touch the baby it begins to beg for food like cray and it is impossible.

https://postimg.org/image/9my107873/
https://postimg.org/image/tldw2ksvz/
https://postimg.org/image/tb6dj8e9r/

The peas are gone :) I panicked too fast. The crop is not slow. I don't think it is canker, but what do you think might this loss of voice be because of the air sac mites? It looks like it has mites in the feathers, so it might be even in the air sacs. I have 0.5% solution of ivermectin that the vet made, but I am afraid to use it on the baby. It had only 130g when it arrived 3 days ago, now it had 165g. The baby is very thin for its age, the breast bone was exposed when he arrived but now there is a bit of meat on both sides.
 

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I honestly don't know what is causing it. I would give the drop of Ivermectin. Don't know what else to try. Just put it on the back of the neck.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
Hello,

Just an update. I think I know what it is but it will take a few days to confirm. It is not canker even thou he had it, he has the nodule in the crop - it is not a pea it is rough and fixed, so I got him on medication for canker just in case. We do not have metronidazole in MNE but I use Roni plus tablet. It is very efficient, I cleared one heavily sick pigeon whose mouth and throat was caked with canker. The treatment last for 3 days and I know you might be skeptic but the pigeon I treated is still with me and not sick for a long time. I also used this for babies that had canker in the past and they all got well in 3 days and never had the disease again. But back to the point, I think it is pox. The swelling on the beak that appeared slowly is very big today and the whole beak on that side is a bit swollen. He needs tylosine for the leg for at least 5 days, but I will give him vitamins and minerals, and good food so that he goes trough pox. Also probiotic every day.

Here is the best picture I could make:
https://postimg.org/image/vpl48rk7x/

It is a bit lighter in color that it is on the picture. From the inside the mouth it is white.

I am interested in how transmissible is pox to other pigeons? I have 4 more on treatment. I use asepsole to desinfect my hands after I handle the pigeon I suspect has pox and everything I use for that pigeon (feding, bedding etc) is just his, I never share between birds, but can it go around via droplets through the room? I saw on the net it can spread via droplets but how far?

I have 2 babies in the same room, in their box, and then 2 more adults that just sleep in their cages in that room.

Thank you for your answers.
Best wishes
 

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Don't know for sure it is pox. Could be pox starting, but if there is nothing in the throat then I don't know what would cause the loss of voice. If it were me, I would be afraid to keep him in the room with others. Good hand washing between birds, and even clothes changing, like maybe putting on an over shirt to take care of him, and saving it just for him, would be recommended. It isn't just droplets that you need to worry about, but also dust and dander, which you cannot control. At this point, you can't be sure that it is pox though. I hope it isn't.
..........................................................................................................................................

Transmission of the avian pox virus can occur in a number of ways. The disease can be spread via mechanical vectors, primarily by species of mosquitoes (at least 10). Transmission occurs when the mosquito feeds on an infected bird that has a viremia (pox virus circulating in the blood) present or on virus-laden secretions from a pox lesion and then feeds on an uninfected bird. Mosquitoes can harbor and transmit the virus for a month or longer after feeding on an infected bird. Experimentally, stable flies have shown the capability of being able to transmit the pox virus.


Avian pox can also be transmitted by direct contact between infected and susceptible birds. The virus is transmitted through abraded or broken skin or the conjunctiva (mucous membrane covering the anterior surface of the eyeball). Indirect transmission of the pox virus can also occur via ingestion when food and water sources, feeders, perches, cages, or clothing are contaminated with virus-containing scabs shed from the lesions of an infected bird. The pox virus is highly resistant to drying and may survive months to years in the dried scabs. Indirect transmission can also occur via inhalation of pox virus infected dander, feather debris and air-borne particles.
http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10370_12150_12220-26362--,00.html
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
The thing I can do thou is keep him outside on the balcony. It is very warm and then there will be a small chance that anything can get to the other birds. If this thing on the beak keeps growing just a little more he will be isolated like that.
 

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Except that if he doesn't have pox, and he is then kept out on the balcony where mosquitoes can get to him, he then could get pox, unless protected from mosquitoes.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Yes, hard decision and then mosquitoes can get to him and then enter the house for the rest... I now have to wait and think on how to make a quarantine maybe with sheets or something... I will do my best. I am not sure how long until the bump actually looks like pox. But for the next few days it will be hell, I know.
 

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If outside, is there some way to put some sort of mosquito netting or screen over his cage?
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
It is not pox. Swelling is going down. Also there is no more bumps anywhere. He is still without the voice, but everything else is normal. He is standing up often. I am giving him tylosine and will continue for few more days so it will also cover any respiratory infection if there is any - but there is no labored breathing or cough, sneezing or anything like that. Just normal baby pigeon that is silent...
 
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