[Joeyspesh]

She may had too much food or she still is a bit sensitive. I hope she manages to keep her food down.

Thats a great idea to use a cardboard splint. I would say leave it on for a week, then remove it to see if her toes stay in a correct position and to allow her to flex her joints. If not, resplint it and wait another week. If the joints are unable to move for longer than a week, ankylosis may occur and make her joints immovable. You may want to carefully trim her toe claws, but be careful not to cut into the quick, of course. Her long claws will cause her toes to rotate as I can see in the front toe and can lead to deformity if left too long.

That is good that you are making her formula taste like greens. This will help immensely when you transition her to solids. Be sure to use only fresh greens to avoid E. coli etc.

Maybe the right probiotics will aid in her digestion. You can add a minute bit of probiotic powder (1/16-1/8 measuring teasoon a day for a few days). Any probiotic will do except ones that may contain enterococcus species (which may disrupt or kill normal bird gut enterococcus) or streptococcus faecdium/faecalis. The gut bacteria of herbavores usually also contain certain fragile species of cellulose-digesting bacteria, which may be difficult to replace, especially after use of empiric or systemic antibiotics. They really need to develop species-specific strains of probiotics for birds. Domestic pigeons have a unique species specific gut microbiota bacteria which they have in abundance called Enteroccus columbae, and is found no where else in other species.

Also, according to a field study conducted between 2017-2018 in Italy, 23% of collected wild wood pigeons had a low levels of small worms in their gut. They found mainly crestodes (16.3%), nematodes (14.4%) and the rest were Digenea ssp. (2.5%). These can cause minor problems like a degree of undernutrition or weight loss and other gastrointestinal disorders like inflammation, constriction, compaction or stasis in severe cases. Using dewormers may be hard on their systems (especially panacur). Moxidectin is safer, even safer than ivermectin with birds. Has a vet performed a fecal floatation on her to check for worm egg casts. I know you said you used your microscope, but I don't know if she was tested by a vet. I guess I will have to read up (again my fault for joining in on the thread late). It may be hard to find and may need a few tests to tell as nematode eggs are very small and few and far between, and I know I mentioned it before with you.

when Our region went into stricter lockdown, it made the testing quite difficult, prior to this the plan was to get any tests needed at a local lab... but that’s not possible now. (Everything is very strict here now and not sure if you saw previously but it’s illegal to give medical attention or care to a wild pigeon here, and the fine is €200k!) so for now, no tests are available.

her nails definitely need trimming, It’s very hard as she was vomiting every time we tried last week. She hates her feet being touched. I’ll definitely do them in a week when I take the splint off the first time - my husband needs to be with me and holding her, she wriggles the entire time even when wrapped/swaddled very well.

i just gave her some formula balls as we have a power cut and I couldn’t warm the water for formula. Strangely,no gagging Whatsoever! She’s a funny little bean. Lucky I can give my full attention to her!

We are a vegan family so celebrate “thanksliving”, same to you! our day is over now and we’re all off to bed! X

 

[Joeyspesh]

Hi Friends! @jonrf @Marina B wondered if I could ask a quick question, hope you don't mind.

So, the gagging has returned with Xena, sometimes its with formula balls, sometimes with formula, sometimes she actually vomits and other times she doesn't.

I think at this point I need to try and get some tests/vet care done, to ascertain what the actual issue might be. I have noticed that since she had the formula balls she is not pooping as much, so I wondered if she has some kind of blockage or her system is struggling to digest semi solid/solid food?

I don't have access to the vet often, as I mentioned, so I want to try and persuade him to do a whole work up if it might help diagnose her issue. So my question is, what would you recommend?

Ive read that fecal/dropping tests and analysis need to be done over 5 days, so I would have to start planning. Is there a specific scan or test outside of the slides that could help us figure out what's going on? I just want to make sure I cover all my bases..... the thing that's really perplexing me is that she's totally fine, behavior wise! She sleeps, preens, stretches, tries to fly, explores etc. she's curious and alert but also quite a snuggly sleepy girl. I know these are all good signs, but besides checking her mouth for canker (still nothing) I don't know if there's much else i can do, and I feel like the gagging must be a physical response rather than psychological?

Any thoughts? I am going to try to get her to the vet tomorrow morning if he has space otherwise it will be later in the week.

 

[Joeyspesh]

PS: There is no guarantee that I can get vet tests done, but I am at the point of begging or paying for a private lab if that's something he can identify for me, so I just wanted to see if either of you had any specific ideas as to what we could be looking at.

 

[Marina B]

Can't give advice regarding the tests. Our closest avian vet is 4 hours away, so I've never had tests done. But I've noticed that when they get fed only formula balls, they need a lot of water. If you feed 50 % balls and 50% peas, then they almost drink no water. So if she is not getting enough water, the balls might not digest properly.

 

[Joeyspesh]

Can't give advice regarding the tests. Our closest avian vet is 4 hours away, so I've never had tests done. But I've noticed that when they get fed only formula balls, they need a lot of water. If you feed 50 % balls and 50% peas, then they almost drink no water. So if she is not getting enough water, the balls might not digest properly.

she’s still having fennel tea so plenty of water, probably more than when she was having the formula as liquid. I’m so perplexed!

 

[jonrf]

I was going to suggest using a few drops of pure fennel seed oil mixed into the formula. Fennel oil is antihelmintic, it slows worms' digestion and stops their egg production. Also it an anti-inflammatory which should help any possible inflammation in the GI tract. It is also an antispasmotic which relaxes muscles in the GI tract to help pass food. It is an antifungal and has potent action against Candida albicans. It has antibacterial properties against E. coli and Salmonella ssp. Fennel seed extract is a good antioxidant as well.

Just make sure whatever Flannel seed oil you use is not in alcohol or extracted with hexane. Swanson and Nature's Answer brands have alcohol in them. PipingRock and PlantGuru brands are made with steam distillation and would be safe.

Another idea I had was to use some freeze dried garlic. It will be easy to crush into a fine powder if dry. After making a powder, then add a few drops of slightly warm (78-80°F) water to it and wait a few minutes before slowly adding more warm water drop by drop over several minutes to maximize the production of allicin out of the garlic. Allicin is best used within 45 minutes as it will readily oxidize and break down. You can refrigerate it to make it last a few hours at most.

Allicin is also antiparasitic, and kills worms, and it also is an antiinflammatory, but do not give more than about 200mg of garlic cloves' worth of allicin water a day as too much will cause irritation and inflammation in her GI tract.

I never send for tests but do them myself. The one thing I do is do a fecal float with fresh droppings right away to not allow any potential organisms to decompose as some will within minutes if not preserved. Also, not all perservants work for every organism. So multiple sample containers may be needed containing buffers, EDTA, formalin, or alcohol. Best to call a few labs and ask.

I would keep trying your vet, or reach a biologist or ornithologist at a University that may be interested either in pathology, veterinary medicine or wild bird species. I was really hoping she would keep her food down too

 

[jonrf]

I wish I could teleport with my microscope and help you solve this

 

[jonrf]

When she has solid droppings, does the fecal portion look very thin or thicker like an 1/8th of an inch. Very thin may mean inflammation or swelling in her intestines. Too much inflammation or irritation (or infection or parasites) can cause diarrhea or excess mucus.

 

[Joeyspesh]

I’ll get some pictures of her droppings today, I haven’t taken any recently. I’m still waiting for the vet to call back so hopefully this week. I wondered if she could have a scan or X-ray to see what’s going on... if only this website was a teleporter! 🤣

Im making her formula a little thinner (it was like mashed potato consistency before the gagging started)so now it’s more like thick cream? I’m also using her swallowing to help with the feed, if I crop feed she almost always gags. If I use the syringe just after the hole in the tongue and let her natural urge to swallow assist me? She gags less or not at all. She was on 20ml previously but I’ve reduced to 15ml and a little more frequently, it seems to be helping with the gagging and she’s content between.
This morning she gagged but didn’t bring anything up, and it didn’t last long. After she eats she just melts herself into a little puddle in her basket, it’s adorable! She likes to relax her wings and rest her beak on her chest.
oh and she managed to preen the splint off her foot 😂I reapplied it yesterday with a new design that might be a bit more comfortable for her, I actually think she has some kind of issue with the ankle, as that’s quite stiff and bent to the side a little. If she can have an X-ray I suppose that will be figured out, but if the splint comes off and her little feet continue to be a bit misshapen and she continues to balance on the edge of the foot I think she’ll be okay.

 

[Joeyspesh]

 

[Joeyspesh]

It’s hard to get a pic before the liquid is absorbed, but it comes out with about equal parts liquid and solid. Today the urine and urates seemed to be blended. Almost milky? She’s not pooping much today actually, tiny little nuggets like this one or smaller. I weighed her and she’s about 5g more than last week so she’s not losing weight, which I guess is good?

 

[Joeyspesh]

Unrelated to the previous topic and questions but I have noticed that in the last few days her eye is looking much better, the fibrous strands that were on her eye have almost gone, the vet was right when he thought that the eye would regenerate. I’m pleased her good eye is going to perfect, as the other eye is permanently blind. And her sweet little grey feathers are coming on on her face which has been bald for so long!

 

[Marina B]

How is she doing now? Are you still giving vitamins and probiotics?

 

[Joeyspesh]

How is she doing now? Are you still giving vitamins and probiotics?

Hi @Marina B ... thanks for checking in!
I got a new probiotic this week which I started yesterday, (without electrolytes) which seem to be going down okay. I actually had to stop all the supplements as it seemed to be exacerbating the gagging. I have ordered some different ones hopefully they will come before the weekend or early next week. She seems to be so delicate! I’ve got her feeding schedule adjusted to 15ml every 3 hours, she only actually vomits maybe twice a day? And it’s not a huge amount. I would say 1-2ml total.
Apart from the relentless gagging and vomiting, she’s trying to fly, preening, stretching, sleeping, snuggling with me. Oh and last night she made her first wood pigeon noise! (Coo coo co co cuu) which was a shock as she doesn’t really make any noise apart from the odd single tiny squeak once in a blue moon! She did it again today once, but not confidently and it seemed to confuse her! 😂

 

[Joeyspesh]

Well, I just fed her 20ml (to see how she would manage after 2 days on 15ml) and she didn’t gag or vomit, it’s been 45 mins so fingers crossed! Maybe that probiotic did the trick. I did notice some little flecks on the side of her throat, which may or may not be debris from formula (I’m perhaps paranoid!) so I’ll check again in an hour or two once the gag timezone has passed - if she has canker again it would explain a lot!

 

[Joeyspesh]

Just after midnight here and off to bed... no gagging or vomiting after that last meal, for the first time in days and days. Hopeful!
she also made another pigeon coo coo noise when I left the room,both times have been late at night so that’s when I have to keep my phone on to record the noise!
she’s also graduated into a small dog crate on my dresser for the night to sleep in. She’s been in a little car carrier at night right next to my bed/pillow so I can watch for her being sick. After 3 months I think I can stop worrying about her enough for her to be 2 meters away! She snuggled/melted into the towel and is already fast asleep. They really are resilient little birds aren’t they!

 

[Joeyspesh]

She’s back on 20ml, and though she gags it’s definitely reducing, and she hasn’t vomited in more than 24 hours so I’m hopeful that the new probiotic might be helping? If that’s possible!

 

[jonrf]

I am sorry that I have not been on lately. I have been busy and now fighting off a respitory infection I hope it is not COVID, but have been taking antibiotics and have no other symptoms. I have COPD so am prone for infections of that sort.

The probiotics may help. The droppings look to be at a right diameter. I hope she doesn't have trich/canker as sometimes it will develop resistance and you may have to switch coccidiostat meds. Keep an eye on her throat and odor.

She is growing up It usually takes a few months to start to vocalize. I know the first time my latest rescue made a coo, he looked shocked making a noise lol

 

[Joeyspesh]

I am sorry that I have not been on lately. I have been busy and now fighting off a respitory infection I hope it is not COVID, but have been taking antibiotics and have no other symptoms. I have COPD so am prone for infections of that sort.

The probiotics may help. The droppings look to be at a right diameter. I hope she doesn't have trich/canker as sometimes it will develop resistance and you may have to switch coccidiostat meds. Keep an eye on her throat and odor.

She is growing up It usually takes a few months to start to vocalize. I know the first time my latest rescue made a coo, he looked shocked making a noise lol

No worries Jon! Your health comes first... i hope you recover and heal! Do you have someone to take care of you?

the probiotics haven’t seemed to sort things out, in fact today her droppings are milky with one or two bubbles.... I’ve asked my rehab pa but wondering if you might know what this might indicate? I check her mouth/throat daily, no smells or growths so far!

 

[Joeyspesh]

I’m wondering if she has salmonella again/still? The boils on her shoulder had almost done but today I notice one is quite yellow and large, and her legs look more swollen than usual and are hot to the touch!