Pigeon-Talk banner

1 - 20 of 72 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
257 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I found a squeaker (Union Square) whose vent was damaged by an injury. We saw Dr Pilny (VIMAS) twice and things were moving along but since this morning the small opening to the side of his vent through which waste was passing through has closed down. I tube fed him early this morning the formula. It is still in his crop. He is trying very hard to push things out but nothing is coming through. The soonest appointment I could make with the veterinarian was 4 PM tomorrow.

Do you people think he will be OK till then if the waste doesn't start coming out?

Thank you!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,369 Posts
Hi ab,



Can you provide more background?


His Vent proper is not passing anything, but some secondary opening was? Was but now stopped?

Was the secondary opening something occuring from an injury? somehting his Body did? something the Vet did?


What meds has he been on?


What kind of food has he had?


What were the poops / urates looking like when they were passing?


Images of his injury?

and of the last poops/urates?



Phil
Lv
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
257 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Hi Phil,

I found him about two weeks ago. Something happened to his rear. All of his tail feathers and most of the feathers from one of his wings were pulled out and his vent was all deformed, bruised and inflamed. The poops/urates were then and have been, until last night, leaking out from the opening which apparently was formed on the left side of his vent where the round vent muscle was severed from the injury; being cut on one side his vent muscle is not functioning. At the beginning this opening was large enough that the waste was passing and dripping out easily but it looks like that it has slowly closed down. Two days ago I noticed he began to force stuff out and it will burst out.

I have been feeding him Kaytee "exact" formula by tube. Only thing I was instructed to do is to clean and lubricate the area with the antibiotic ointment. The waste that was coming out seemed normal as far as I could tell.

All I've seen come out off him since early this morning is very small amount of whitish liquid. He is constantly trying to force things out but nothing happens. I'm going to stop feeding him since the formula which I fed him about 2 PM today seems to be still in his crop.

My main question and concern now is regarding the complication that can happen from the blockage. Is this an emergency situation? How long before I must do something. Our last vet visit was last Monday.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,445 Posts
AB, I would be prone to wanting to take a well lubed Q-Tip and insert this into the vent to see if things can be coaxed out. To do this I would take a Q-Tip and remove half of the cotton ball, just make sure when you do this the remaining half is well attached still, this smaller ball will make it a bit easier to ease in. If you had some Preparation-H around I would put a generous amount on the Q-Tip (use Vaseline if you have no Prep-H) and then some on the vent opening and very gently, and slowly, try and insert it, turning/twirling the Q-Tip a bit to help it in and hope between the lubrication and you maybe opening up things a bit, he can then void. It would be good if you could get him to void a few times until you get him in to help prevent him from going toxic.

Karyn
 

·
Guardian Angel
Joined
·
6,859 Posts
If you don't have any pre-made hydrating formulas @ home, you might consider
using the IRS formula and give in small amounts w/shorter time frames between
tubing.

I take it no 'drain' was placed in the other opening on the side?

fp
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
257 Posts
Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
Karyin, I tried that couple of hours ago using the Bacitraycin ointment and a Q-Tip and the vent, whatever is left of it, started bleeding so I stopped. The vet told me that it is better to leave it alone because any messing with it would make the inflammation worse. However, now, we have the danger of going toxic, as you put it. Do you think this might happen if I wait till I see the vet which would be about 16 hours from now and what does "going toxic" exactly mean? I suppose I could try to probe with the Q-Tip where the opening was which is healed now?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,445 Posts
By going toxic, I mean waste by products, such as ammonia, that would be eliminated through normal voiding, building up in his system poisoning his system so his organs start to shut down. Don't know how long a squeaker would have without being able to void before his system started to shut down, a lot less time that an adult I would imagine and with an adult I would say around 24-36 hours before death may ensue. I would consider this squeaker critical and call in early in the morning and let them know or do what I have done before for a critical bird, be there when they open their doors in the morning.

Karyn
 

·
Guardian Angel
Joined
·
6,859 Posts
I would see if they could see the bird sooner. Did they not put a drain in the side puncture?

fp
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
257 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Firalpigeon, I do have little bit of hydrating formula left at home and there is no problem getting some more; Duane Reade around the corner is open 24 hours. But do you think I should be giving him anything now? His crop has been full since I last fed him almost 12 hrs ago.

What do you mean by " 'drain' placed in the other opening"? The other opening is actually right on the side where the circular vent muscle was cut so in a way it is connected to the vent. Do you mean something like a tube can be placed in the opening?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,369 Posts
Hi ab,




Images? ( showing the wound, and Vent area? )


Why were there no Suture repairs to the torn area via the Vet?


I am not understanding the details of the wound, and, why the normal aperature was not in some way favored by a procedure to repair the fistula/Tear/wound-channel?


Peritonitis would be likely if fecal matter related materials are permitted to escape into the interior areas of the abdomen...or also systemic infections could result.


It does not sound to me as though the Vet had managed this well.


If there is local infection/inflammation...or inflamitory debris...these could close off the normal aperature...


I am just not getting a clear enough mental picture of how deep, how severe, through how much tissue, why was not sutured, etc.

Dog Mauling?


Is the youngster on Antibiotics?


Anyway, "yes", if his system is functioning well, eating well, and poops and urates can not be released, he is in definite serious trouble, 'crisis', and will not last long unless it is resolved.


He will not dehydrate in a day, so maybe with-hold food and water, pending an early Vet visit tomorrow.


Phil
Lv
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
257 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
OK! I was able to get some stuff out of him. I used one of those rubber tip gum stimulator to slowly widen the opening and then I gave him 12 ml of hydrating solution.

Phil, I am sorry I couldn't explain better what is going on and I am not set up for taking pictures at the moment (my digital camera is still in the box), but, trust me, the vet is one of the best avian vets around and I believe is doing the best that can be done in this situation.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,369 Posts
Okay...

Do appeal to him as soon as possible, for him to re-examine the wound, since present conditions as you describe, are seriously inconvenient for the Bird, and, for you!!

Is the youngster on a systemic Antibiotic presently?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
257 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
Thanks Phil!

Well, I spent most of the last night getting the waste out of him. I gave him a lot of Pedialyte and little by little a lot of dark olive green, foul smelling stuff was eliminated.

At 4 this afternoon, we saw Dr Pinly. It was decided that we are going to give some more time for the inflammation to come down and hopefully things will correct by itself. If not, the next step would be a reconstructive micro surgery. Right now he is on antibiotic and anti-inflammatory medication.

To clarify things a little... When I found him about two weeks ago, his injury must have been already few weeks old because his tail and his wing feathers were grown back a few inches at that time. Also, it appears, the injury was not by a predator but by an impact and pressure; perhaps a bicycle wheel. There is no major skin wound. Most of the damage was done internally so it is hard to know exactly what is going on in there. As I said, Union Square is lucky he is getting the best medical help. Dr Pilny is: DVM, Diplomate ABVP (Avian), avian and exotic pet medicine and surgery and was highly recommended. I thank Jennifer for this.

I admit it's been tough on both of us. At the moment, I am also dealing with three bad cases of PMV and a major ligament wing injury; but I was lucky I could get three weeks of vacation from my work.

By the way, Phil, if you remember my last thread about the feral who lost all of his tail feathers... I decided to let him decide weather he wants to stay or go. I started leaving the door open for him. He was hesitant at first but after couple of days he took off but came back the next day and has been visiting every day since. At first he looked funny flying but his tail grew back fast.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,369 Posts
Hi AB,



I do not understand this sort of injury well enough to understand the Vet's reasoning.


A Stint could probably help...just a short length of flame rounded 'end' Plastic Soda Straw or the likes...


But I do not know how this injury is to be expected to heal, if the injury imagines itself to be non-debrided for material passing out of it...


Sorry you have such a difficult one to manage!!!


Oye...


I would have thought, anti-inflamitories/relaxants and or injections there of even, for the Vent proper if needed...and, Suture the respective layers of the tear on the side...and Stint the Vent if need be...far as my own naive imagings.


Vents can be sensitive to Nerve issues sometimes too...throwing off their usual responce for elimination schedules...


ACV-Water and Pro-Biotics might aid his system in this situation.


Glad to hear the update of your Tail-Less one..!


They look like 'Ducks' kind of when flying with no Tail...


Best wishes!


Phil
Lv
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
174 Posts
Just one thing to add to the other good advice you are getting from board members and the vet.

When we have a bird that is not passing feces, has a blocked vent, etc. we use the q-tip method. But, in addition, you can add a drop of mineral oil to the qtip when massaging around the vent - the mineral oil warms (much like baby oil) and is stimulating. A drop of mineral oil down the throat is also harmless and encourages them to move their eliminate and makes it much easier.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,445 Posts
AB, glad you were able to get him cleaned out last night, you did good. Sounds like you have a good vet advising, please keep us updated of this little one's progress. I had a bird with a prolapse once and Preparation-H worked, IMHO, very well to reduce swelling and inflammation, you may want to try some to the vent area.

Karyn
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,369 Posts
Hi AB,


Good luck on this!


I am sorry I just do not have anything much to contribute!

Wish I did...

Certainly, anything you can do to encourage his Bowels relieving themselves, is good.

Two weeks, most cuts or tears would have long since healed or be pretty well done.

So, several things here I am not understanding...

Do you have an opinion on how much healing has occurred so far?


Post some images when you can..?


Best wishes!


Phil
Lv
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
257 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
Many thanks!

I just went to the drug store and bought some Mineral Oil and Preparation H ointment.

This is a very difficult situation. The center of his vent is totally closed. The opening right next to it is very small and it's not clear where it exactly leads and how is it connected to the cloaca or maybe intestine. The Q-Tip even when most of cotton is removed will not go in there. If I try to push it, bleeding starts. I am using now the tip of that brown long feeding tube some of you may be familiar with. I am afraid there might be a lot of internal damage; only several of his tail feathers are growing back and they are deformed and all crooked to one side.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,369 Posts
Hi AB,



When are you going to see the Vet again?


Please have him explain in detail, his reasoning for allowing this condition to have remained for two weeks, with no repair/Suturing of the torn tissues, thus permitting the un-natural exit of fecal materials.


I can not understand the reasoning.

If this is a tear communicating to the interior of the Cloaca...it is less a danger for toxemia than if it is a tear communicating through the abdominal wall and to a tear in the Intestine...where the entire Abdominal cavity would be contaminated, and, occasioning a lethal systemic infection.

But still...I do not think it is going to heal well, if fecal material and attending bacteria from it, are continually in contact with it in this way.

Nor apparently, is fecal material succeeding to exit through the tear or the Cloaca proper, anymore...so...

I think he needs to re-appraise his mental model of just how this was supposed to work, or, heal...and to look carefully at how things are presently.


Bleeding of the Cloaca two weeks after the injury does not sound like the condition of the Tissues are doing well at all.



So sorry...


Pigeons who have a Nerve injury which prevents easy opening or response of the Cloaca...the Cloaca expands, holding back large amounts of material...and, these Birds, when being cared for, can be checked for this every few hours, and, warm Water and gentle massaging of the base of the Cloaca, permits them ro release the materials.


If his reasoning was that he did not believe the Cloaca would manage well enough in actualizing a normal tone and nervous response for elimination process with the side tear Sutured, he could be reminded of this method for assisted eliminations, which, probably, would work well-enough for this situation.


Phil
Lv
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
670 Posts
By going toxic, I mean waste by products, such as ammonia, that would be eliminated through normal voiding, building up in his system poisoning his system so his organs start to shut down. Don't know how long a squeaker would have without being able to void before his system started to shut down, a lot less time that an adult I would imagine and with an adult I would say around 24-36 hours before death may ensue.
You know, I used to think that (it just seems logical) also, but when I asked the vet (actually, two vets) about it, they both said there was no danger of an animal developing toxemia from fecal retention. Of course, birds defecate combined urine + feces, so I don't know how the urine component plays into potential risks associated with fecal retention with them as opposed to mammals, but the vet said that if the crop was emptying, eventually the feces would come out, even if the vent area just emptied passively. In one case, one of my birds was retaining feces (secondary to other things going on with her) for up to 24h over a few days.

Jennifer
 
1 - 20 of 72 Posts
Top