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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Here is what we know.....of 35 or so young Kings that were collected in San Francisco several passed pretty quickly with no diagnosis. Elizabeth took a bunch more. She has lost one I think from unknown causes...(I will ask her to fill in any gaps in info here so we get the best advice possible.) Others of the original group remain in San Francisco.

16 or so were sent to me for observation and transfer to a loft in Malibu. After three weeks, with no symptoms or loss, 11 or so were taken to Malibu. In the week after that transfer, I have lost two. Friday afternoon Malibu lost one and then another today (Sunday). Of the remaining 9 birds in Malibu they have removed 5 and they are on route to PT member Terry W. for observation and diagnosis and treatment....4 birds could not be caught and remain in the Malibu aviary. One body is schedule for a necroscopy (sp) hopefully tomorrow.

After descriptions, Terry is suggesting PMV....but my losses had no classic PMV symptoms. In fact I was pretty sure one of mine had canker, caught too late.(my fault :( )

The Malibu loft is unique...trust me...UNIQUE. The dimensions make it impossible to catch and treat all of the birds, making vaccinations or pills impossible.

What general steps can Jane (at Malibu) take to minimize loss when individual birds cannot be treated?

She has scraped and scrubbed everything with bleach, removed the birds she could for Terry to treat and hopefully diagnose...but there are 4 kings and over 40 or so homers left in the aviary....

Basically, what can she add to the water or the food to minimize losses?

I have been laboring under the impression that many of the rescued birds were so compromised by stress, immaturity and starvation that they were susceptible to pathogens that a strong healthy bird would fend off....that losses were sad but inevitable....which does not mean we are not trying everything we can to save those we can...

Jane has spent most of the day cleaning, trapping and driving to save the kings she took on in an effort to rescue them from their circumstances in San Francisco...she is an angel! But now she needs our help....and I am running out of ideas.

Yes, Elizabeth and I could have quarantined the birds longer...but except for two early losses, mine remain healthy after 5 weeks so not sure that would have made any difference.

Sound off.... what now can Jane do to fortify the flock in her care? (almost like treating a feral colony....) :confused:
 

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Here is what we know.....of 35 or so young Kings that were collected in San Francisco several passed pretty quickly with no diagnosis. Elizabeth took a bunch more. She has lost one I think from unknown causes...(I will ask her to fill in any gaps in info here so we get the best advice possible.) Others of the original group remain in San Francisco.

16 or so were sent to me for observation and transfer to a loft in Malibu. After three weeks, with no symptoms or loss, 11 or so were taken to Malibu. In the week after that transfer, I have lost two. Friday afternoon Malibu lost one and then another today (Sunday). Of the remaining 9 birds in Malibu they have removed 5 and they are on route to PT member Terry W. for observation and diagnosis and treatment....4 birds could not be caught and remain in the Malibu aviary. One body is schedule for a necroscopy (sp) hopefully tomorrow.

After descriptions, Terry is suggesting PMV....but my losses had no classic PMV symptoms. In fact I was pretty sure one of mine had canker, caught too late.(my fault :( )

The Malibu loft is unique...trust me...UNIQUE. The dimensions make it impossible to catch and treat all of the birds, making vaccinations or pills impossible.

What general steps can Jane (at Malibu) take to minimize loss when individual birds cannot be treated?

She has scraped and scrubbed everything with bleach, removed the birds she could for Terry to treat and hopefully diagnose...but there are 4 kings and over 40 or so homers left in the aviary....

Basically, what can she add to the water or the food to minimize losses?

I have been laboring under the impression that many of the rescued birds were so compromised by stress, immaturity and starvation that they were susceptible to pathogens that a strong healthy bird would fend off....that losses were sad but inevitable....which does not mean we are not trying everything we can to save those we can...

Jane has spent most of the day cleaning, trapping and driving to save the kings she took on in an effort to rescue them from their circumstances in San Francisco...she is an angel! But now she needs our help....and I am running out of ideas.

Yes, Elizabeth and I could have quarantined the birds longer...but except for two early losses, mine remain healthy after 5 weeks so not sure that would have made any difference.

Sound off.... what now can Jane do to fortify the flock in her care? (almost like treating a feral colony....) :confused:
What are the symptoms?
Hopefully the necroscopy will be telling and you will know what you need to treat for. I think you need to wait for the results.
 

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Jane should be here in the next little bit with the Malibu birds. My first thought was actually Salmonellosis, then egg binding for the one that died today (jury still out on that). Then Jane told me that there was extreme head and neck twisting when the first ill one was caught today. That is pretty much classic PMV .. extreme stress (from being caught) resulting in the PMV symptoms of head/neck torticollis.

It's my understanding that one of the deaths was due to canker, but I am not sure that this is/was the case .. just something that came across in conversation about these birds.

As I told Jane on the phone, everybody involved in this acted in good faith and took good precautions .. sometimes stuff just happens and we have to deal with it.

Hopefully I will have some further input for everyone once the birds get here.

Terry
 

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I just called Firstimer .. no longer active here but was for a long time .. she is going to get back to me with the vet info for a vet we might use in your area. Sorry that my tired old brain can't resurrect more than Dr. Tamara .. anyway Firstimer will be back to me shortly. Hopefully this Dr. Tamara can do a necropsy and come up with a diagnosis. There is a very competent and well known avian vet here in my city, but there is no possible way that we can afford his services .. it would be about $500 to walk in the door and then another $1500 or more to get to the end of the story. I can't afford this and to my knowledge neither can anyone else involved.

Terry
 

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How about sending the body to a veterinary college? Isn't there one in Davis?
Also, there are competent vets that don't charge as much as the one you are referring to in your city, Terry. It sounds like you have had a horrible experience or two and that is a shame.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Charis...the first one I had was just fluffed, gone light, stopped eating...nothing visible in the throat, no respiratory issues, poops were very watery, olive green...I hand fed so the bird did not starve, poops improved, treated with a 4 in 1 for lack of anything better...jswitched to Baytril after 4 days of no improvement...then he just laid down and died before my very eyes....no neuro symptoms or head twisting or stargazing etc.....

The second bird was a few days later, went very fast...small yellow placque in the throat, started meds but the bird passed within 24 hours, again with no neuro symptoms that I would usually equate to PMV...but I defer to Terry. She should have the other birds in her possession and has more experience with more conditions than I will ever have!

My fear is that the birds came from different places in different conditions and we may have multiple diagnosis as their general poor condition made them susceptible to different illnesses....and since there might not be the $$ for the necropsy, PT brainstorming may be the best we can do....(and a better chance than had the birds been left to their fate in the parks of San Francisco (doggy dinners) or the shelter there (euthanasia)...) :(

I have just put in a stock of several often used meds so if Terry makes a preliminary diagnosis I can help treat any individual birds we catch..but the challenge now is the flock treatment to save as many as we can of the rest that we cannot catch. (45+ birds total)
p.s. the birds in my cages still show no symptoms. At least two of them shared cages with the ones that passed away....
 

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Birds Are Here - 5 Of Them + 1

Jane and her husband just dropped off 5 of the King pigeons from Malibu plus 1 stray picked up along the way.

There is no sign of canker in any of the 5 Malibu birds. 3 of them appear to be in decent to good health .. two are not doing well and one of those those two I don't imagine will be with us in the morning. It's emaciated, very weak, but still no sign of canker and no PMV symptoms.

I'm now back to thinking salmonellosis or some other bacterial thing.

I've got the critical care one on heat and all have had a dose of Cipro (Baytril). We'll see where we are in the AM.

The stray pigeon that hooked a ride is also extremely emaciated with a crop full of nasty fluid. I've milked the crop and put this one on heat also for the night with a dose of Nystatin. We'll see where we are tomorrow .. possibly not anywhere good.

It's been a really long day here and not a particularly good one for birds in So Cal, so I'm going to finish reading a few posts and head for bed. Gotta get to work tomorrow with heaven knows how many little bird babies in tow.

Terry
 

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Also, there are competent vets that don't charge as much as the one you are referring to in your city, Terry. It sounds like you have had a horrible experience or two and that is a shame.
Well, that's certainly true, Charis. BUT, if you know how to get some of these birds taken care of by the So Cal avian vets at a reasonable cost, you sure need to let us know how. I can get the birds to competent vets and at a semi-reasonable price, but they aren't avian vets. When you all here are going on about avian vets and getting birds to them, you have no freaking clue what that really costs here in So Cal or Florida or New York or any other state with a big population.

Terry
 

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The second bird was a few days later, went very fast...small yellow placque in the throat, started meds but the bird passed within 24 hours,
I am so sorry to hear about what's happening, Kippermom. :(

Jane and her husband just dropped off 5 of the King pigeons from Malibu plus 1 stray picked up along the way.

There is no sign of canker in any of the 5 Malibu birds.

Terry
Terry,
It does sound like there are probably several things going on.
I certainly wouldn't r/o canker as on of them. :confused:
As we all know, and have discussed, canker isn't always visible.
Canker that's internal would definitely be on my 'Thought to Ponder' list as at least one of the cuplrits. JMO

Cindy
 

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How about sending the body to a veterinary college? Isn't there one in Davis?
Also, there are competent vets that don't charge as much as the one you are referring to in your city, Terry. It sounds like you have had a horrible experience or two and that is a shame.
Well, that's certainly true, Charis. BUT, if you know how to get some of these birds taken care of by the So Cal avian vets at a reasonable cost, you sure need to let us know how. I can get the birds to competent vets and at a semi-reasonable price, but they aren't avian vets. When you all here are going on about avian vets and getting birds to them, you have no freaking clue what that really costs here in So Cal or Florida or New York or any other state with a big population.

Terry
Actually, I don't think I ever said any thing about taking the the birds to a Avian vet. In this case, I wasn't talking about taking the birds to a vet at all. I was talking about taking one of the Pigeons that had died for a necropsy.

I have always told members that they can take a sick Pigeon to any vet that is experienced and comfortable and willing to treat them. Sometimes that's an avian vet and sometimes it isn't.

I don't want members to get incorrect information about vet costs because of some bad experiences. Example...mydoggrommer...had a bird with a broken wing on July 2nd. She was dissuaded from going to see a vet and told the costs would be upward on $5000. She just freaked at the costs which is understandable. I called around and spoke to vets in her city, which happens to be San Diego, and found an avian vet that was willing to see the bird and wrap the wing for $59.00. Of course she could have x-rays and more had she chose. She chose not to go at all. She was given incorrect information based upon a bad experience and the one that lost the benefit of veterinary care for that incorrect information, was the poor little Pigeon.
This account was via email.

When we take our animal/bird to a vet, we are in control. We can ask for an estimate of cost before and treatment has been given. We can go over the costs and decide just what things are necessary. Often vets will negotiate depending upon the circumstances and the way in which the individuals situation is presented.
 

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I would have additional concerns about these poor King pigeons. What about Circo virus or Herpes virus? I don't know much about them, but from what I've read they can both cause general unwellness and lots of secondary infections, making the birds unable to fight off canker, etc. This to me would be a major concern. Unfortunately I've heard it's difficult and expensive to diagnose.
 

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Quote by Birdmomforever...

Unfortunately I've heard it's difficult and expensive to diagnose.

Would you please verify the costs so we can see how they vary from region to region? Also this would give us concrete information rather than hearsay.
 

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Whatever it is, I would boost their immune system first, treat water in the aviary with bleach or Vircon, place more feeders to spread birds and reduce contact and divide birds as much as possible (improvised curtains or whatever). In a big loft, during the night birds are easier to catch with torchlight.
Good luck, I wish I could help more.
 

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Quote by Birdmomforever...

Unfortunately I've heard it's difficult and expensive to diagnose.

Would you please verify the costs so we can see how they vary from region to region? Also this would give us concrete information rather than hearsay.
I have no idea how I would do that, since I've never dealt with it myself. My primary reason for posting was to give a heads-up to people involved with these birds as to another possible cause of a lot of sickness. A standard 4-week quarantine would probably not catch those viruses and rescuers/rehabbers need to be aware of them so they don't infect their other pigeons.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Trying to find a local place to do it.....

Because we do not yet have a definitive diagnosis we are hesitant to start treating and we are concerned that stress might drive others to the brink...
 

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I e-mailed the vet info to all the involved parties a bit ago. Hopefully this vet can do the necropsy at a reasonable price.

Yoko Tamura,
Clinic Name: Capri Plaza Pet Clinic
Address: 19582 Ventura Blvd
City/State: Tarzana, CA 91356
Map: Google Map
P: (818)881-6344
F: (818)881-4384
Email: [email protected]

Charis, I apologize! I really didn't mean to snap at you like I did last night. You caught the brunt of a very long and trying day. Your find in San Diego was an excellent one in terms of cost of visit and treatment.

Terry
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
advanced necropsy being done tonight....big questions in the interim..

(1) should we start baytril in the water for the remaining flock or wait for a diagnosis? Is there a potential harm if the diagnosis is PMV or something else? All the birds remaining in the aviary seem fine today per the groundskeeper there...even the 4 SF kings were flying around...and;

(2) should the 4 kings still be removed or is the stress of grabbing them (if we can) doing more harm than good if the illness is stress related?:eek:
 
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