Pigeon-Talk banner
1 - 19 of 19 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
28 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I hope I can write this so everyone can understand what I am asking. in my mind I know what I want to write but sometimes my fingers take over. I think it might be called oldtimers diease!
I have Janssens now which several of them are flying long distance 400 to 600 miles now. But I want to add some speed to them. What line would you fellows use?
What I am trying to do is build a blood line of longdistance/ foul weather and fast birds to my loft. With racing in mind in the next year or so. I am sure this has already been done by someone. Is there one bloodline that is known for speed more than other lines?

Thanks to Ken Munson(whitesnmore) I will be trying out some of his Houben/Van loons this year!
Waynef
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,198 Posts
If a magic answer was there It would be easy. NOW distance birds times speed birds improves speed ON getting home. Are ardens the answer NO one are there really ardens left in the world answer NO as history shows what 3 4 pair were stolen back after the ww2 war. So the have a name. Your birds over Qulity 400 500 mile birds Can be an answer. Best deal is get Known birds that have been raced the distance and sart there. NOW distance birds can go off course and return to the line And still win. So by crossing speed time distance you can improve the line meaning you improve the homing instinct keeping the bird headed more on course. Best thing for distance winners is DO NOT race one race after the other with the select birds BUT race them out a distances Pull them for 2 3 weeks befor the big race train them yes But this way the get a rest Befor the long Better health goves better performance tierd birds get lost to weak to get home And arrive slower. Alot to think With NO real answer But to try and go forward with rersults.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,850 Posts
You want long distance, hard weather, speed birds by next yr. good luck with that. I've seen a lot of peds from one loft race birds. Mostly Janssen with a little fabry, and Van Riel 2 or 3 generations back. I'm not sure what Ludo or the Houben family started with, but I do know it took them years to build the family's that they have.
If you Google every strain you can think of read every thing you can and then pick the birds that are most compatible with yours, then maybe in 3 or 4 yrs you will have what you want. IMHO
Dave
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
691 Posts
I have distance birds as I said Aarden/Hofken/Nulimen/stickabot, have three of them going in the southeast open in the last race of old bird season, one hen won 2 times
once at 200 in 25 mph head winds, once at 500 in 25 mph head winds I think they have the speed and homing instance.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,367 Posts
I hope I can write this so everyone can understand what I am asking. in my mind I know what I want to write but sometimes my fingers take over. I think it might be called oldtimers diease!
I have Janssens now which several of them are flying long distance 400 to 600 miles now. But I want to add some speed to them. What line would you fellows use?
What I am trying to do is build a blood line of longdistance/ foul weather and fast birds to my loft. With racing in mind in the next year or so. I am sure this has already been done by someone. Is there one bloodline that is known for speed more than other lines?

Thanks to Ken Munson(whitesnmore) I will be trying out some of his Houben/Van loons this year!
Waynef
It's a good and fair question. And what happens is fanciers will suggest you get a hold of XYZ brand of pigeons. Now for discussion purposes, let's say you can get a bunch of people to agree that Mr. X has some of the best World Class Speed birds. Now, the question is, what does Mr. X do to breed more speed into his birds ? Does he go to Mr. Y ? If so, what does Mr. Y do ?

My point might be, that somewhere along the line, someone has to stop looking for that magic brand X, and actually breed a speed pigeon. It's quite possible, if you have "good" birds already, and you have already won races at under 300 miles, then you may already have the starting material already in your loft. You may simply have to look at moving some of your pairings around, and devote some attention to breeding a pigeon for the task you want, and also consider if something in the management is a factor.

I don't have the answers, but I really wonder if the fancier who is attempting to have sixteen different familes or lines of birds, for various distances and conditions, like speed, middle distance, long distance, bad weather, good weather, blue sky, overcast, head winds, tails winds, etc. etc. and is always buying some of this and that...is not in reality...missing something in the process ?

I recently was able to visit a loft with a really great long term record. YB's/OB's, Short, Middle and Long Distances. A dominent force in a 130+ member combine, thousands of birds. Most likely you read of him in RPD.

I was surprized that he had no "Speed" birds, no special "Long Distance" stock. Simply a very good solid family of birds he has developed over many years. Typical breeder had to have made the cut after YB season, and then about 4 seasons as an OB before consideration for the breeding loft. It is pretty much a requirement to do well in all the events, especially the 500. He showed me one of his cock birds he liked. IF Champion, 13 times he was awarded a 500 Mile Day Bird Diploma, several of those were 1st place wins.

So, go figure, he wins more then his fair share of short distances...or "speed" events...beating the numerous lofts with "speed" birds...but he also expects these birds do fly a 500 mile event with some speed also. Just thought I would throw this in there...for whatever it might be worth.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,756 Posts
I kind of agree with the overall theme here. I would not so much worry about getting speed birds, but crosses form sound 100-400 mile families that are fast and can come home from the distance. Some families that come to mind here in the Us would be:

Clausings Houbens
Vic Miller birds
SFL birds
etc.

I would find a good family from a good loft and introduce them into yours. Find good sound birds with a winning lineage that do well at all distances. You could always study the local race sheets and see who's birds are winning at fast speeds.

Randy
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,433 Posts
If you want short distance speed Birds, start a new Family. As you will not end up with much by crossing long distance with speed birds. Because the long distance breeder spent a lot of time BREEDING, fast burn out birds, and wanted stamina! Dave T
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
628 Posts
Wayne. IMHO the theory that introducing speed blood into your long distance is going to speed up the long distance racers is flawed. What we have found (thru errors) is that it typically makes your speed bird alot slower. I feel that the wing shape and body type of the bird will dictate alot of the speed and distance the bird will do. There have been several posts on here in regards to this. I recommend anyone interested in this idea to check into the prior posts. If I were in your position I would keep the long distance birds intact and introduce a totally new family for 100-400 miles. Once you breed and fly these out you could chose select pairs to "test" on the cross to see if your experiment would work. Expect this to be a minimum of 3-5 year process at the absolute earliest. Patience with the results will be required because in our experience the expectations will exceed the results. Having said this, I dont see anything wrong with playing around with the blood to see if you can create a better strain. This is part of the fun in pigeon keeping. Good luck and keep us posted on your "testings".
Ken
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
28 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Thank you gentlemen! That is exactly what I needed was advise from the much more experienced than I.
As My Dad use to say "the only dumb question is the one you don't ask" That is why I am here to learn. Again thank you all!
Wayne

PS If I do ask a stupid question, smack me along side the head!!!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,198 Posts
Flaw is not the idea. Crossing lines For better long distance bird Is the question being asked. So you need to retain smart birds. THAT being so called speed birds. As they perhaps not only fly some faster BUT can remain more on the line of the shortes path home. As long distance races a bird can get off line for a time then recover to get home. The smarter bird would stay a better path And recover the path Faster. Building a family of birs ONE takes many many years. Not 2 3 years. Heck it takes 3 years to build the first old bird team in a loft. NOW many people over race the birds Tierd birds go out on a 500 mile race . When the long race bird team should have been pulled and rested loft flown road tossed To gain the sthrengh back to better compete the long race . over worked birds fly slower And get lost more often. All so called strains Produce birds that fly better in the shorter races and birds that do better in the longer races. BUT I can not name many if any modern day so called strains Of birds. WHY because people are crossing every year all around the world. NO strain there just good pairings of the birds. It agin takes so many years to develop a family of birds. If a person races both short and long then several groups of birds must be bred for. Young birds that did well on the 300 and 400 mile races can mature to do well on the 500 miler. IF not over worked. That is where many fail they do over work there birds Young bird breeders that race only young bird races well they do not have to race those birds as old birds SO there method is to develop birds that can hold up to the rigers of one season. Then selct the beter performers as future breeders. BUT long races are old bird Those birds fly for a few years come more into there own as a mature 3 three old bird IF not over worked
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
88 Posts
something I read

I'm a beginner in this sport so I'm not speaking from experience. as I have very little(2 YB seasons 1 was disastrous). I read in an old('01 '02) Racing Pigeon Digest. that a sprint or speed bird was nothing more than a hungry distance bird. although I don't remember who wrote the article. it was one one of the better ones I have read in these old mags I have. right or wrong? I have no idea. just a thought.

the main point I took from the article is feed for the distance you are racing. the bird should be able to fly it all. its up to the fancier to make it possible through proper handling.

Kenneth Flippen
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,138 Posts
I'm a beginner in this sport so I'm not speaking from experience. as I have very little(2 YB seasons 1 was disastrous). I read in an old('01 '02) Racing Pigeon Digest. that a sprint or speed bird was nothing more than a hungry distance bird. although I don't remember who wrote the article. it was one one of the better ones I have read in these old mags I have. right or wrong? I have no idea. just a thought.

the main point I took from the article is feed for the distance you are racing. the bird should be able to fly it all. its up to the fancier to make it possible through proper handling.

Kenneth Flippen
I am no expert either and you do have to feed for the distance you are racing but there are different pigeons sprint and long pigeons are different. There are fast pigeons that can fly at speeds above that of a true distance birds. My long distance birds rarely go over 11-1200 ypm ever. They will not win good fast races period they won't keep up but on a bad race they will be there. Now if you have a sprint pigeon and a long race and it is a fast blow home your long distance birds are still in trouble because it is time on the wing that matters and the fast ones will still win.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
457 Posts
Wayne. IMHO the theory that introducing speed blood into your long distance is going to speed up the long distance racers is flawed. What we have found (thru errors) is that it typically makes your speed bird alot slower. I feel that the wing shape and body type of the bird will dictate alot of the speed and distance the bird will do. There have been several posts on here in regards to this. I recommend anyone interested in this idea to check into the prior posts. If I were in your position I would keep the long distance birds intact and introduce a totally new family for 100-400 miles. Once you breed and fly these out you could chose select pairs to "test" on the cross to see if your experiment would work. Expect this to be a minimum of 3-5 year process at the absolute earliest. Patience with the results will be required because in our experience the expectations will exceed the results. Having said this, I dont see anything wrong with playing around with the blood to see if you can create a better strain. This is part of the fun in pigeon keeping. Good luck and keep us posted on your "testings".
Ken
I'm on the opposite of this opinion. I believe, and have experienced, introducing speed to the distance birds has and will improve them. I believe speed birds are smarter, faster orientating, "get home fast" attitude birds, which are the traits I look for in my birds. I breed 1/4 speed to 3/4 middle/long and it has worked out well.

I know in todays times, there are already specialized birds bred for certain races. But, there are more crosses than a "family" of birds, so there are still more crosses flown, for the most part. And, these crosses are not always straight speed or distance bred. They are a mixture of both, knowingly or otherwise.

Speed is always the winner. The reason, in my opinion, the long distance birds win short and middle distance is because of weather. I do believe a speed strain is capped at 400 miles as old birds and 300 for yb's. This is enough for most races.

To answer wayne's question of speed strains, I have Keiser blood from CBS that are fast and Houbens from Clausing that are fast. Others in the loft as well, but not fully tested.

If you look at Elton Dinga's results, he wins a lot from 100-300 miles. That is fast, in my opinion. You can get a decent bird from him for $250. I purchased a cock direct and have 3 more birds from his loft purchased through a friend. These bred fast birds for some flyers I gave them out to. I have raced none myself but have trained out to 380 road miles with 2 losses out of 12 yb's (one was in bad feather; one was 2 weeks after a hawk attack).

Sam Haslem has good speed birds. I have a direct pair purchased from a friend and they have produced fast birds for a flyer that I gave babies to race; 100-250 mile yb top 5%. No 1st in this group, but lots of top 5% through-out the yb season.

In all, I think you can pick up good speed racers from the above mentioned breeders. All have good reputations and all have good birds. Price wise, you can get good birds from CBS cheap.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
28 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I think I have found my speed bird!! Right in my own loft!!!! I have a young Half Janssen and the other half is unknown. Let me explain that. Last year I was in the hospital when my birds paired up. I was there for a month and spent another month in the house not able to go out side, so I have no idea who Daddy is! This problem has now be solved and all known Janssens are in one loft and any questionable have been given away(3 unknowns)

Today I took 6 birds out for a training flight(40 miles), I was doing single tosses. I tossed this little blue bar the last one out. As he was ringing up to get his bearings a Peregrine came in, at the last second thsi BB rolled to his right and the falcon missed. Then he started climbing and headed for home. The Falcon was climbing as had as he could and diving every time he got above the BB. Long story short this pigeon turned on the after burner and beat it home. My buddy was watching with binoculars and cheering the bb on. The last we saw of the falcon he gave up after a good 2-3 mile chase. I came on home and found this BB sitting in the loft. He also beat the others home according to my son He did look quite proud of himself! In my bood he is a keeper!!

Again thank you for all the comments gentlemen
Waynef
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
419 Posts
As the saying goes, winners breed winners. I would concentrate on getting birds that are winning, or are bred from birds that have won at the distance you want to do well in. Personally I think many people get too caught up in a "strain" and don't focus enough on the direct performance. I am by no means saying don't pay attention to what line a bird you are considering is from but there is no majical solution by only paying attention to that. You are not going to take a Ford cross it with a Chevy and get a Porshe on a regular basis, though you might get lucky now and then. Your Janssens are considered by many a shorter distance line, but there are many doing well at 600 miles, there again it is just the bird and if that is the way its direct breeding went. Pay attention to what distance a birds wins at and what the wins really are, a win in Spring Hill against thousands is so much more that a club win with five members. I hope this helps Wayne, we are all always learning, and you are right, there are no dumb questions.
 
1 - 19 of 19 Posts
Top