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Hi Cynthia,

Yes, I have started to give her calcium some days ago now~ who knows if that has had something to do with the one foot getting better...? Just need to get the other one strong now! It's a shame, because she's really into the flying thing now, which is a little tricky each time she needs to land (and take off)...

Oh, that's fantastic with your little badly paralyzed pigeon! It must've been a moment you'll never forget~ I'm looking forward to the same with my little fellow. It's good to hear stories like this, thanks. :)


Hi ippychick,



Glad to hear things are improving..!


Would you describe the poops for us? Color ( in detail ) consistancy, size. how often ( roughly ) ?


Too, you can encourage her to use her legs by holding her gently by the Tail, on the Bed, so she can flap and thus take some of the weight off her Legs...and in that way, she can possibly sort of stand and 'walk' as you keep ahold of her tail, as she is flapping...

You can encourage her to Wing flap in your hands by holding her so her Wings have room to do so, and, slowly, settleing her on the Bed to continue there as you hold her Tail...they can pull quite strongly, too, when flapping even mildly, so hang on..!

I have done this many times with various paralysed Leg issues ones, and they all take to it and get it figured out pretty fast, and they really loved doing it and enjoyed the excercise...and would wait for me to hold their tails for them...

I'd be carrying them over to the bed, they'd launch out of my hands, land however so, and wait then looking over their shoulder at me, and soon as I had their Tail in my hand, they'd get into the flap-walk, and we'd do a bunch of that however many times-a-day.


You can let her 'walk' along taht way on the bed, then, stop for a moment, and start over if need be once you had used up what room there was and arrive too far to lean and or otherwise run out of room...it seems to work better letting them actualy 'walk' and cover distance then to oblige them to walk or stand in place.

Otherwise, hmmmmmmm...Viruses, Bacterial/Protozoan infections, contusion or other blunt trauma to the back...anything effecting the Kidneys causing inflammation of them or ajacent tissues, all can conspire to compromise the Sciatic Nerves and make the Legs become weak or limp.


Strain, sprain, 'green' fractures of the Leg Bones, also can make for a similar appearance, and one needs to look and feel and decide very sensitively in examining the Legs and the Bird as a whole, to try and decide if it is the Legs themselves which are injured, or, if it is the Legs being effected by something else that is effecting the Sciatic Nerve.

Poops which look like 'Spinach Dip' ( swirled white or yellowish urates in green fecal matter, especially when large and made only a few times a day ) suggest Virus or other infection effecting the Kidneys/Sciatic Nerve...

Muscle tone of the Vent proper, similarly...some Back/Nerve injurys tend to make their bowel movements difficult or delayed and the Pigeon may only pop once or twice a day or with difficulty.


And, of course, if the Bird has injury TO the Legs, one would not wish to impose Leg excercises on them, and or also, they would tend to protest or refuse such anyway, or would definitely not enter into flap-walking with eagerness and bright enthusiasm...



A ruptered or infected Oviduct can do this also in some instances, and one may find a greyish white calcium/mineral sort of material mixed with their poops, or, hardening in their Vent and clogging it....but your little Pigeon would be far too young for this to be a consideration.


Phil
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Discussion Starter #22
Hi Phil

Hi Phil!

Thank you so much for your last post! I read it already a while back; it was wonderful to read about the tail walking that you described... I did try it with my little one, but I'm gonna send another post about what has been going on lately!

(The poops~ did you get my last posting on page 1 for you? I described the poops there)

Thanks again for the last post! You seem to have a lot of knowledge and experience of pigeons! I wish you lived a little closer to me, so I could show my pigeon to you~ but more in the next posting!
 

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Discussion Starter #23
The Latest!

Hi everyone!

Sorry for my recent silence; things have been quite hectic lately. Apologies also for all of you, like Phil, who sent a reply about what could be the case with my pigeon and never got a reply from me!

Here is the latest with the pigeon that I found (also the reason for my silence);

The little pigeon's ("Vivi") left leg improved dramatically, but as she kept limbing the other one we decided to take her to the vet. The vet looked at her for a few minutes, and said there's nothing she can do and the pigeon will never learn to walk properly.

She said Vivi can't fully stretch her right leg, so she thought there has either been a trauma OR it is somehow deformed. (No x-ray was taken)

Then of course she just wanted to put her down, and kept repeating that is what we should consider doing. :(

What a disappointment! I would have rather received news about some bacteria or disease, and then tried to fight it with some medication...

The vet literally looked at her just for a few minutes, and that's it! That was the most disappointing $55 I've ever had to pay!

I didn't want to put her down though~ so she's still alive!

Vivi is very fresh and awake in her head, and she doesn't seem to have any pain. She walks very clumsy though, as she is not using the toes in her right leg correctly. (They are not paralyzed either, but she just keeps them somewhat crumbled as she walks~ sometimes when she stands on a towel (etc) she does spread them properly, which makes her standing good!)

There are also some pigeon breeders around here, so we thought a good idea would be to contact them~ that didn't work out at all; either they said they would just put her down (without even seeing her), or that they can't take her in because she doesn't have a ring around her ankle... One lady we saw was also very rude; as soon as she heard it wasn't a "pedigree pigeon", she just told us to leave her on the grass outside somewhere!

Ahhh.....

We are still wanting to fix her leg, and have been trying to find & contact some pigeon specialists who are experienced with fixing pigeons' feet and legs~ maybe they could tell what to do.

This little bird too wonderful to be put down~ and I've never been good with putting animals down if they are not in great pain or are still full of life.

So, that has been going on lately!

Other than that she is eating well, growing, doing fine and awake. She has become just as attached to us as we have to her. She's a bundle of joy. :)

Jo
 

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Wow! Look at those beautiful feathers! Vivi is quite a little cutie beauty!!

- Are you still doing any physical therapy with her?
- Giving her Calcium?
- What do you have on her toes?

I know others will be along with their comments.

Unfortunately, there are too many people who, seeing a pij with any type of disability or injury, opt to put them down! What a shame.

There have been too many recovery stories here on the site of pijies who were pretty bad and made full wonderful recoveries!

Looks like you are doing a fine job, Jo...

Love, Hugs and Scitches

Shi & Squeaks

:D :D :D :D
 

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Hi Ippychick, sorry things did not go well for you at the vets and that you still
have no resolve where this is concerned. I can't say w/all certainty that this
is infection related, I can tell you that of the younsters/babies that I've picked
up w/similar curled toes and inability to stand that this was corrected by a course of Baytril. Their system pretty much then needs to get 'rebuilt' in terms
of replenishing the good bacteria that was wiped out from the antibiotic therapy. In fact, I've released two such young birds in the past two weeks
that had problems standing in addition to other symptoms when I first picked them up. Should you ever try the Baytril route, you would need to withold
calcium for the time being until the course of antibiotics was complete. Good
luck w/your little one, really, she is such a little beauty.

fp
 

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Hi ippychick,




You can make some simple Diorthotic 'shoes' which will spread her Toes so when she does stand or walk, the Toes will be in a normal array and not accidently 'under'.


Just take some regular Cardboard, like from any brown Cardboard Box...and with a Razor Blade, cut out a shape which is the shape of what her overall footprint would be, with all the Toes in their normal array.


But, make the shape just as much smaller as to allow for her Toe Nails to overhang, even notching those places where the ends of the Toes will be so it keeps the Toes in the right place, in the notches.


Pad this then a little with some folded Toilet Paper, in the center area, and tape her foot to it, gently wrapping the tape over and around and so on.


The best tape for this is 'Micropore' Tape, 99 cents-a-roll ( 1/2 in width size ) easy to get at any medical supply strip mall place.


So, if I understand correctly...


There has been no 'yellow' in her urates, or hints of yellow?

Have the poops been like 'Spinach Dip'? Medium-Green, streaky with Urates..?


Can you post some poop images?


Post more of her too..!


So, she is putting weight on one Leg fairly well, and not-so-well on the other Leg?



The 'holding their Tail on the Bed' Wing flapping excercise, which takes weight off their Legs as they flap, and lets them 'walk' while flapping...might be good to do if you have not been. You can support her from underneath with your other hand to get her started or to work in her getting the idea so she will flap...if Leg No. "2" is up to it...

Once she gets it, I am sure she will enjoy it and look forward to it.


She sure is lovely..!


Good luck..!


Yahhhhh, the Vet merely clipped you out of fifty-five bucks for a whole lot of nothing but a pretended exam and a bad attitude form them.


Sorry to hear of it, but some of them are that way.


If there are any Parrot Rescue groups in your area, ask them what Vets they like...who knows, there might be some good ones..!



Phil
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Hi Jo,

Not being able to stretch her leg is a bit of a worry, did she mention how this happened? Did you try the physical therapy that Pigeon Person recommended? If so, when did it become difficult to extend the leg?

If the vet just gave her a cursory examination I wouldn't take that diagnosis as final. This is what a vet told one of our members:

Apparently he has got a broken wing & fractured knee, and missing tail with possibly dog puncture marks, but the tail will grow back,the vet said he will never be able to return to the wild and the best thing was to put him to sleep.
I told the vet that I have a home for him in Norwich, she said it would be kinder to put him to sleep as the odds are he will never fly again and simply hobble about.
Well, the pigeon beat the odds, she flies and walks with a very slight limp. She lost her first mate last winter, but quickly found another and is happy and healthy.

You can often correct a curled foot. I had a wood pigeon brought to me with what was described as a "congenital abnormaility of the toes". I stretched the whole foot out between two layers of self adhsive support bandage. Because it was so much more flxible that a splint it didn't upset him at all. After a week I removed the bandage : his toes were normal and they never curled back into their old position.

I can't guarantee that this will happen with all cases, but it is gentle enough to do no harm, specially as she is able to stretch out her toes.
 

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Hello ippychick,

Just now saw this thread. Been a bit delinquent in following the news at PT due to tiredness and being a bit run down, but ...

there is a pigeon clinic in Essen, in Germany. Bit of a distance for you, but it is there.

I've been informed that the doctor is the best in Germany. His heart is with the wild pigeons, but he treats the racers and fancies to support his clinic. Lots of people have him check out there birds on a routine basis.

Contact me if you want further info, or some antibiotics.

Vivi is a beauty.

I have a two-year-old rescued-as-a-28-day-old and hand-raised male pigeon, Wieteke, couldn't use legs when found, limps on his left foot, and has he toes of his left foot curled under. Can't raise left toes for grabbing, but can grab with left foot when placed onto object. Real macho, has raised five youngsters from two mates. Have helped some other pigeons with similar problems.

Larry (in Cologne).
 

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Discussion Starter #31
Shi & Squeaks

Wow! Look at those beautiful feathers! Vivi is quite a little cutie beauty!!

- Are you still doing any physical therapy with her?
- Giving her Calcium?
- What do you have on her toes?

I know others will be along with their comments.

Unfortunately, there are too many people who, seeing a pij with any type of disability or injury, opt to put them down! What a shame.

There have been too many recovery stories here on the site of pijies who were pretty bad and made full wonderful recoveries!

Looks like you are doing a fine job, Jo...

Love, Hugs and Scitches

Shi & Squeaks

Hi Shi & Squeaks!

Thanks for your post... :)

Yes, it's very true about the negative attitudes towards pigeons with injuries~ it's been still very surprising though... Luckily there are all these recovery stories like you said, which give hope and reminds of the positive reality!

To your questions...

1. Yes, she is still getting some physical therapy, but mainly massage and not stretching.

2. Yes, she's still getting daily calcium.

3. What is there on her toes; I was wondering if anyone would notice! It is to stretch the toes, so she would learn to keep them straight. We read about this on the internet, and luckily there have also been a few postings about it here! Need to make a new one tomorrow though, following the new instructions~ hopefully it'll help! (*fingers crossed*)

More soon...

Take care!! :)

Jo
 

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Discussion Starter #32
Feralpigeon

Hi Ippychick, sorry things did not go well for you at the vets and that you still
have no resolve where this is concerned. I can't say w/all certainty that this
is infection related, I can tell you that of the younsters/babies that I've picked
up w/similar curled toes and inability to stand that this was corrected by a course of Baytril. Their system pretty much then needs to get 'rebuilt' in terms
of replenishing the good bacteria that was wiped out from the antibiotic therapy. In fact, I've released two such young birds in the past two weeks
that had problems standing in addition to other symptoms when I first picked them up. Should you ever try the Baytril route, you would need to withold
calcium for the time being until the course of antibiotics was complete. Good
luck w/your little one, really, she is such a little beauty.

fp
Hi Feralpigeon!

Thanks for the post!

Yes, it has been quite frustrating with everything that has been going on with trying to get help, but I'm still keeping a positive mind! And I must also add, that all the support here on this forum has been truly amazing!

I have kept Baytril on mind, even though I haven't tried it yet. I'm still considering it, so I'll let you know what happens!

Take care!

Jo
 

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Discussion Starter #33
TAWhatley

Vivi is just incredibly beautiful. Bless you for loving this bird and giving it a chance at life with you.

Terry
Hi Terry,

Oh, that's so sweetly said~ thank you! :)

(She is sitting on my lap as I'm writing this)

Jo
 

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Discussion Starter #34
pdpbison

Hi ippychick,




You can make some simple Diorthotic 'shoes' which will spread her Toes so when she does stand or walk, the Toes will be in a normal array and not accidently 'under'.


Have the poops been like 'Spinach Dip'? Medium-Green, streaky with Urates..?


Can you post some poop images?


Post more of her too..!


So, she is putting weight on one Leg fairly well, and not-so-well on the other Leg?



The 'holding their Tail on the Bed' Wing flapping excercise, which takes weight off their Legs as they flap, and lets them 'walk' while flapping...might be good to do if you have not been. You can support her from underneath with your other hand to get her started or to work in her getting the idea so she will flap...if Leg No. "2" is up to it...

Once she gets it, I am sure she will enjoy it and look forward to it.


She sure is lovely..!


Good luck..!


Yahhhhh, the Vet merely clipped you out of fifty-five bucks for a whole lot of nothing but a pretended exam and a bad attitude form them.


Sorry to hear of it, but some of them are that way.


If there are any Parrot Rescue groups in your area, ask them what Vets they like...who knows, there might be some good ones..!



Phil
Las Vegas

Hi Phil!

Thank you for the post!

Great instructions to make the "Diorthotic shoes", thank you! We tried something similar, but it didn't work out as well as expected, as the toes were "wrapped" individually and she was still able to curl them.

We'll do the "Diorthotic shoes" first thing tomorrow morning, so I'll let you know how it goes! (You don't happen to have any pictures of this done by you?)

To your questions;

1. No, there has been no 'yellow' in her urates, or even a hint of yellow. (What does the color yellow indicate?)

2. Yes, the poops have been like 'spinach dip', and medium-green & streaky with urates. Only if she has drank a lot at once or eaten something very watery (like soaked berries), then her poop can get a little loose/watery, but it gets back to normal in about a day. She doesn't eat the formula anymore, but I noticed when she did, that was making her poop more runny as well.

3. Yes, I can post some poop images! I don't have any right now, so I'll take some tomorrow!

4. I'll post more of her too. :)

5. Yes, she is putting weight on one leg very well~ I'd say it's working perfectly now! The leg No. 2 not-so-well.

It looks as the problem was the curling of the toes in this leg, which makes the walking difficult. When she stands on a towel or something edgy, she does straighten the toes correctly~ so it is possible!

The walking does look quite bad though, especially when she is on the floor, because she limbs. Sometimes she uses her wing as support on the 'bad side', like she was leaning on to it. (Maybe I could film her walk and put it online)

6. We have tried the "tail-walking-on-the-bed", which she enjoys. It's very good. (Plus she loves any chance to be on the bed!)


Yeah, the vet... I keep reminding myself they're not all bad. ;) That truly was the most disappointing $55 I've ever spent in a matter of minutes! (Actually $76 now when the dollar is so low) I also felt so sorry for Vivi, because she behaved SO WELL there!

But, luckily there was a new posting here by "Larry_Cologne" about a vet that sounds very promising! (He also writes about one of his own pigeons, that sounds very much like Vivi!)

Thank you again for your post, and I'll keep you up-to-date about what happens!

Take care!

Jo
 

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Well, Miss Vivi is just gorgeous and I'm sure very appreciative of all the attention you've been giving her. Count me in on the cheering section (no advice, just cheers! :D )
 

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Discussion Starter #37
Cyro51

Hi Jo,

Not being able to stretch her leg is a bit of a worry, did she mention how this happened? Did you try the physical therapy that Pigeon Person recommended? If so, when did it become difficult to extend the leg?

If the vet just gave her a cursory examination I wouldn't take that diagnosis as final. This is what a vet told one of our members:



Well, the pigeon beat the odds, she flies and walks with a very slight limp. She lost her first mate last winter, but quickly found another and is happy and healthy.

You can often correct a curled foot. I had a wood pigeon brought to me with what was described as a "congenital abnormaility of the toes". I stretched the whole foot out between two layers of self adhsive support bandage. Because it was so much more flxible that a splint it didn't upset him at all. After a week I removed the bandage : his toes were normal and they never curled back into their old position.

I can't guarantee that this will happen with all cases, but it is gentle enough to do no harm, specially as she is able to stretch out her toes.

Hi Cynthia!

Thank you for your post!

The vet said she can't know for sure what has happened to the leg, but she said it's probably either trauma OR it's deformed. If it is a trauma, then even a broken bone could have simply grown into a wrong position (I doubt this is the case though).

When Pigeon Person recommended the physical therapy I didn't do it until I had taken her to the vet~ simply in case the leg was broken. I did look and feel the legs many times before that though, and I never noticed the other leg wasn't stretching 100%~ it wasn't so obvious.

Yes, I agree with you about the vet's diagnoses, and I love the story about the pigeon that recovered so wonderfully!!

We tried to make some bandage around her toes (like the last picture I posted shows), but as we did them separately it didn't work out. Tomorrow morning we'll bandage her whole foot and hope for the best! Can it be left for one week straight? Or does it need to be taken off some days? (You don't happen to have any pictures of the one you did?)

I'll let you know how it goes!

Take care, and thanks again for the post!

Jo
 
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ippychick,

I think it would be good to review ligaments, tendons and nerves.

Ligaments hold bones to other bones.
Tendons hold muscles to bones.
Nerves control muscle movement meaning how tendons and ligaments expand and contract and therefore operate the muscles.

The curling of toes can indicate a lot of different things that have gone wrong. A nutritional deficiency can collapse the legs and the toes can go limp but they don't normally curl.

An infection can collapse the legs and the toes can go limp but again, they don't usually curl.

A nerve injury can cause ligaments and tendons not to work properly or not at all and cause the toes to curl. The tendons and ligaments can atrophy and that shrinkage will cause the toes to curl inward. If this is the case, then straightening out the toes will only work while there is any kind of a splint on. When the splint comes off, there are still no messages being received by the toes and they willl curl.

If your bird was hit on the spine, then there appears to be partial nerve damage with the toes getting the worst of it. One leg appears to be better than the other and it's the worse of the two legs that also shows toe curling.

If and when all the healing that can happen, happens and the toes are still curled on one foot, then the bird is left with a serious problem. A bird cannot be allowed to walk with curled toes for two reasons;

1) The bird will walk on it's 'knuckles' which were never meant to be abraided like that and infection will eventually set in. If it does, the bird would not even feel the pain. The infection spreads and eventually, the bird dies.

2) The bird could walk on one leg in order to protect the bad foot and that will put too much pressure on the bottom of the good foot. That will eventually cause an infection to form under the good foot called bumble foot. Any bird that walks off balance can develop this infection. Surgery can be done and antibiotics can be given but bumble foot is stubborn and can return.

To me, and this supposes that there is nerve damage, there is only one solution and that is to amputate the top haves of each of the toes that are paralyzed. It sounds radical but it is done more often than you realize. To reiterate, that bird cannot be left to walk on it's knuckles for the rest of its life.

This is assuming that things will not get better and they may but you have to be made aware of the things that can happen if they don't. There are plenty of birds walking around outside that have some or no toes on one foot and they do fine.
 

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Discussion Starter #39
Larry_Cologne

Hello ippychick,

Just now saw this thread. Been a bit delinquent in following the news at PT due to tiredness and being a bit run down, but ...

there is a pigeon clinic in Essen, in Germany. Bit of a distance for you, but it is there.

I've been informed that the doctor is the best in Germany. His heart is with the wild pigeons, but he treats the racers and fancies to support his clinic. Lots of people have him check out there birds on a routine basis.

Contact me if you want further info, or some antibiotics.

Vivi is a beauty.

I have a two-year-old rescued-as-a-28-day-old and hand-raised male pigeon, Wieteke, couldn't use legs when found, limps on his left foot, and has he toes of his left foot curled under. Can't raise left toes for grabbing, but can grab with left foot when placed onto object. Real macho, has raised five youngsters from two mates. Have helped some other pigeons with similar problems.

Larry (in Cologne).

Hi Larry!

Thanks for your post! I'm glad you had the energy to come here at Pigeon Talk.

A pigeon clinic in Essen? Wow. Funny enough, we were supposed to attend a convention there last weekend! What a coincidence.

Also the doctor sounds great~ exactly the kind a vet should be!

I would love to have some more information about the clinic, if it's possible! Maybe I could also ask you about some antibiotics, etc.

Wieteke~ he sounds exactly like Vivi! How did you take care of him? Also Vivi couldn't use neither of her legs when she was found, so she has improved a lot.

Wieteke is macho? How adorable! I'm sure he would also win Vivi over if they were to meet one day. ;)

Can I ask, how can you see a pigeon's sex? I read somewhere that size is one indicator, and blood samples another. I can't see Vivi as a boy though; she's somehow so feminine!

Well, thank you again for your post!

And take care~ hopefully you are not feeling so tired anymore...

Jo
 

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(You don't happen to have any pictures of the one you did?)
I remember taking photos but can't find them (the hard disc of the computer I was using then got corrupted, I recovered most of the photos but they are not divided into albums and don't have titles.

I called the bandage a "foot glove", Heken (Nooti) said it was a good invention. What you do is lay a piece of self adhesive bandage fklat on a surface, make the pigeon step on to it, fold it over the top of the foot and then press down around the foot and between the toes. Then you trim the bandage's outer edges so that it is just a bit larger than the foot.

Yes, it can be left on for a week.

Cynthia
 
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