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toenails

vivi is very pretty! certainly pretty enough for us to want more pictures :).

based on the last photo you posted, her toenails look really long, which would be in keeping with her not walking and wearing them down. perhaps you should trim them, or least the ones one the bad foot.
 

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Discussion Starter #42
vivi is very pretty! certainly pretty enough for us to want more pictures :).

based on the last photo you posted, her toenails look really long, which would be in keeping with her not walking and wearing them down. perhaps you should trim them, or least the ones one the bad foot.
Hi Aias!

Oh, thank you! :) Vivi will be very happy once I tell her what you said about her. ;)

The toenails~ I'm glad you said that! I was wondering if they were too long! The other day I was just about to cut them, but in the end didn't do it, as I only had human nail clippers~ can they break a bird's nail? I went as close as putting the nail in between the clippers, but then got scared I'd hurt her! :confused:

But yeah, another go tomorrow then... (if the human clippers are fine? I guess scissors are not?)
 

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Hi Aias!

Oh, thank you! :) Vivi will be very happy once I tell her what you said about her. ;)

The toenails~ I'm glad you said that! I was wondering if they were too long! The other day I was just about to cut them, but in the end didn't do it, as I only had human nail clippers~ can they break a bird's nail? I went as close as putting the nail in between the clippers, but then got scared I'd hurt her! :confused:

But yeah, another go tomorrow then... (if the human clippers are fine? I guess scissors are not?)
Human clippers will work but you need to be careful not to cut so much that the nail bleeds. Trim little bits at a time. Have some baking soda handy incase one bleeds or You pick up Stypic Powder which would be a good thing to have on hand. You probably can find some a a pharmacy.
 

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ippychick,
In reading back through the thread, I noticed that you have bayrtil for Vivi but haven't used it yet. Please do. It could make a huge difference. When ever I receive a bird that can't use their legs and feet, that is not related to broken bone or bones, I start a course of Baytril. The improvement has always been within 5-7 days.
Years ago I found a young duck that was unable to walk and it was hard to imagine that it ever would walk. The vet put him on Baytril and he made a full recovery.
 

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ippychick,
In reading back through the thread, I noticed that you have bayrtil for Vivi but haven't used it yet. Please do. It could make a huge difference. When ever I receive a bird that can't use their legs and feet, that is not related to broken bone or bones, I start a course of Baytril. The improvement has always been within 5-7 days.
Years ago I found a young duck that was unable to walk and it was hard to imagine that it ever would walk. The vet put him on Baytril and he made a full recovery.
Ditto, ippychick, ditto.....please, please, give Baytril a try. Clipping the toenails is also a good idea on GP if too long....hold off on amputation until after trying Baytril.

fp
 

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Hi ippychick,



Sorry I had missed your post replying to my poop questions - 'Spinach Dip' and so on...


As for me, I have come to suspect some sort of Virus to be associated with streaky Urates in Spinach Dip looking poops.

Occasions of my seeing such poops have also seen Paralysed Legs, or semi-paralized Legs...and sometimes some compromise in the reflex of the Vent aperature itself, and or also where the Bird does not poop often but poops 'big' when they do.


Now, this could also be not a Virus, but some Bacterial or other infection which is effecting the Kidneys and Sciatic Nerve.

It could maybe be an Oviduct infection, of a Bacterial sort, but I do not know how to corelate that with an obviously 'young' Bird such as you have there.


That is as far as I have gotten in my own experience and conjecture.


Now, as fp ( and I think pp also ) has suggested, 'Baytril' might be something good to try...and, it will not hurt.

Possibly, an Erythromycin would be worth considering.


Possibly others will have some insight or intuitions on this general syndrome of an otherwise healthy-enough seeming Pigeon, having Leg weakeness or Leg paralysis, and making a fraily distinctive sort of poop/urate combo, in which the poops resemble medium Green 'Spinach Dip' with streaked Urates, whether those Urates are unambiguously 'White', or tending to a Yellow hue.


Wish I had more to offer...


But those are my thoughts for this.


I would urge you to sound out a few more opinions here, and to get her on whatever Antibiotic seems to be everyone's best guess.


If your Vet is a dud, probably others here could send you some or direct you to sources close to you, or Mail Order.


Some meds of course can be had very cheap at Farm Supply Stores.


Good luck..!


Phil
l v
 

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Vivi taking a turn for the worse?

Hello Johanna,

To put a few things in perspective for the USA PT forum members: I mentioned the Taubenklinik or pigeon clinic in Essen, but it is probably not practical for Jo/Ippychick, who lives in the middle of Denmark (north of Germany), 596 kilometers away from the clinic, and a six hour drive when there is no traffic (and there usually is). I mentioned it because some people think nothing of hopping in their car (or plane, or helicopter!) and going a thousand miles, while others hesitate to leave their homes. Didn’t want to rule out the possibility simply because of my own limitations, and perspective on a situation. We read about people who have a private jet take their pet across the Atlantic to a vet, or a piece of clothing they wish to wear (as in the book on haute couture The Devil Wears Prada). I don’t personally know anyone with such resources … yet. She emailed me regarding meds, which are on the way, but will not get there probably for a few days (international mail usually takes five days at least).

You said in your email regarding meds I am mailing to you that last night your pigeon Vivi started to act really strange, after apparently doing so well. Please, please elaborate.

Quote from Jo's eMail:

I've had mine for 5 weeks now, and I must say it has been extremely time consuming to take care of her! I've been able to do very little work and other things, and at times I've felt extremely exhausted! Of course it's easier now, as she is older and can eat by herself, but she still has some problems with the other leg~ and now also what happened yesterday... For a moment I almost lost my balance, because as soon as things had started to go well, something bad had to happen! (She suddenly couldn't really fly anymore and she keeps her tail down! She also stays in one place now, where ever I put her. I wonder if she hit herself yesterday without me seeing it, but I don't know. She's been SO hyperactive lately, that it's really shocking how she could change 100%! At least she still eats and drinks well, which is a good sign... But it's weird with her tail and wings! Worrying.)
Caring for and worrying about a pigeon can be exhausting, when we get involved. I suppose that is why it is good we have hospitals, so docs and nurses can parcel out the tasks and worries, and leave the problems at work when they go home. It would be nice if pigeon rescuers and carers had that option available.

Sounds as if Vivi is in a crisis. From your posts I don't get a feel for what is going on right now with Vivi. Sounds like paratyphoid/salmonellosis (pigeon specific, humans won't catch it). Please post some more info.

I see that you post mostly late at night (Central European Time). Are you taking Vivi to the vet today? Do you have Baytril on hand, or only "in mind"?

Pigeon holding tail down often indicates abdominal pain. If you go to vet, take recent poop sample in plastic sandwich bag, or such (keeps it moist and easy for vet to see).

My recently rescued baby pigeon Luxie-311 couldn't use legs for moving around, but did have feeling in legs. Vet thought it was a matter of nutrition: fast feather-growing demands a lot of energy. Gave her cotrim and grit, etc. She still can't use tail, but flies well otherwise. Saw her doing well a week or so ago, a month after her release onto the street. Her tail drooped while I watched her peck for food.

Hold Vivi in your cupped hands, using thumbs to keep her from falling, and tilt her forwards and backwards (she should instinctively move her tail up and down in an instinctive reflex effort to maintain her balance. This will tell us whether she has abdominal pain or nerve damage with tail.

The one-legged pigeon Swingleg I have been observing for two years or more is a local street pigeon. She has both legs, but only one functions fully. When she is afoot, she makes a swimming motion with her left leg, which is totally useless except for perhaps balance, and slowly hops to a source of food. She has trouble scrambling after food, and does well only if someone drops enough to keep other pigeons likewise occupied for a while. She has a mate or buddy, who looks after her. At least, he shows up whenever I provide for her at a certain place. I saw her two days in a row last week in the same spot in the grass near some bushes, where I deposited a supply for her, but haven't seen her since. I have never gotten closer than two meters to her, since she must maintain a healthy escape distance.

Good luck, and take care,

Larry
 

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Discussion Starter #48 (Edited)
Hi everyone!

Just a quicky;

Thanks for your replies~ I didn't see them until now!

I called the vet clinic on TUESDAY morning begging for them to give me a prescription of Baytril over the phone. (The same clinic I took her the other week) The secretary said the vet wasn't there, but promised to ask all the other vets in case they'd be willing to make the prescription for me. They promised to call me asap, so I was clued to the phone all day. The vet who saw Vivi was also having a day-off on Wednesday, so she didn't call me today either, and obviously also all the other vets haven't been willing to give me the Baytril.

So, I will call them again tomorrow morning! I did tell them already on Tuesday though, that's it's an emergency, and I really expected to get the antibiotics on Tuesday~ so when I still couldn't get them today, I have been extremely stressed out!

Vivi is ok. She doesn't want to fly though, just walk and stand. Still eats and drinks normally, and grooms herself. She gets very observant when I'm close to her or when I talk to her, so she reacts a lot. Also her eyes are clear, and poops look fine. I'm not giving her calcium or grit anymore. She stays in places I put her, and the biggest thing is she's not flying anymore.

Tomorrow should be latest day to get the medication, and just to let you all know, I've been determined to give her antibiotics!

Larry has also sent some meds by normal mail, so we'll see what is the quickest!

Thanks to you all, once again... I'll let you know tomorrow what's happening!

*extremely stressful two days*

Jo
 

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Discussion Starter #49
ippychick,
In reading back through the thread, I noticed that you have bayrtil for Vivi but haven't used it yet. Please do...............................
Hi Charis!

No, I haven't had any Baytril before~ if I have written that, then it must have been an honest accident?!

I wrote another post about the current situation (it was for everybody, so also for you).

Vivi will get Baytril (antibiotics), there's no doubt about that anymore. I probably should have done it immediately after finding her, but as I started to try all the other things, and as she also got in such good condition! I thought she was heading for a full recovery. Well, can't make it different anymore, so better not kick myself too much.

Thanks again~ I'll post more soon...

Jo & Vivi
 

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Discussion Starter #50
Sorry I had missed your post replying to my poop questions - 'Spinach Dip' and so on... As for me, I have come to suspect some sort of Virus to be associated with streaky Urates in Spinach Dip looking poops............
Hi Phil,

Thanks again.

Larry has sent me some meds a few days ago, plus I've been waiting for the vet to call me since Tuesday morning (see above the other post about that). All the online shops that sell Baytril acquire a prescription, so that's no help either.

I think the antibiotics/Baytril is the best shot now~ whatever the cause is. And yeah, there's nothing to lose, like you said.

It's just strange, that since Vivi was found she has improved and done so well! I thought she was heading for a full recovery~ that's how great she was doing! It was only that other leg, but even that has been much better lately!

I even got afraid the new liquid calcium & grit had something to do with this sudden change, as I gave it to her in matter of hours when she also got 'strange'. But, I guess it was simply a coincidence...

I have become so emotionally focused on getting her well and keeping her happy, that it is extremely devastating to see her change like this.

The meds is the best option now.

Take care!

(More soon...)

Jo
 

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oh i am so sorry that vivi is not feeling well, i hope that you get the baytril soon, and if you think that vivi is not feeling well then make sure that is kept in a warm environment. also, for the future using a nail clipper, such as the ones used for cats work really well on pigeon toenails.

baby biko sends positive thoughts:

 

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Discussion Starter #52
oh i am so sorry that vivi is not feeling well, i hope that you get the baytril soon..............
Aias,

Ah, how wonderful~ baby Biko is so beautiful! Even just the look in the eyes... Ah!

That really was the sweetest thing, and really needed, THANK YOU so much. Really.

Kiss to baby Biko! His (/her) positive thoughts are well appreciated! (Soon Vivi will be well enough to send some back!)

// Vivi is being kept warm at the moment, and tomorrow I should be (fingers grossed) the day to finally get those meds!! The nails will be clipped soon too (once she's better), with proper clippers. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #54 (Edited)
::Quick Update::

QUICK UPDATE:

The vet finally called this morning;

She asked why do I want the antibiotics. I explained to her, and as she sounded slightly reluctant I even read some parts for her from a pigeon book (relating symptoms of Salmonelloses). I also told that pigeon experts (meaning all of you) have recommended antibiotics for a long time already.

The vet said "you can't just give them if you suspect the bird to have something"~ which after I gave my best-ever-convince-speech; she still wanted to talk to someone and promised to call me back.

I was nervous when she called again, but luckily she decided to give the antibiotics!

"Hurray!" :D

I had asked for the Baytril already on Tuesday morning, but she didn't want to give it~ instead, I got some liquid Synulox.

I need to give her 0,7 ml twice a day, for 10 days.

Does this sound ok? Unfortunately I couldn't get the Baytril.

In the early afternoon I also received the meds* by mail from Larry! (Thanks, Larry) By this time I had started the Synulox already, so I'm giving that to Vivi now.

I saw a thread started by Cynthia/cyro51 about Synulox and penicillin sensitivity~ that was good info, as I might have a sensitivity to it...

Other than that, IF Vivi has Salmonellosis, is it contagious to people? Should I get checked, too? The vet on the phone said if that's the case, then also I have it by now... Is this true? Is Salmonellosis the same than Salmonella? (sorry for my ignorance)

Keep you up-to-date...

And please, if there's anything you want to say about this Synulox, feel free! (That's what I'm here for!!)

THANKS!!

Jo/Ippychick

Ps. Vivi is doing really good today, but still not wanting to fly...

* ADDITION:

The meds Larry sent me were CIPRO and COTRIM. I have started the Synulox already, but if you would advice me to swap it to one of Larry's, do let me know A-S-A-P! At least Larry so far might lean on the swapping of meds, and Maggie wasn't aware of Synulox...
 

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Discussion Starter #56
Re salmonellosis: The bacteria called (Salmonella typhimurium var. Copenhagen) is pigeon specifc. Other birds and humans cannot catch it........
Thanks, Larry!

Just wanted to check it one more time! (I know you already said it once in an e-mail)

:)
 

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Hello Ippychick,

Since you seemed to want extra verifiaction and reassurance, I decided to look up an actual quote for you, and found a small surprise at this link:

http://jcm.asm.org/cgi/content/full/43/8/4208

JCM Journal of Clinical Microbiology, August 2005, p. 4208-4211, Vol. 43, No. 8

Salmonella enterica subsp. enterica serovar Typhimurium var. Copenhagen isolates from a heifer-raising operation and from 11 dairy herds that had their calves contracted to the heifer-raising operation were examined for their phenotypic and genotypic characteristics. Results of the study showed that the heifer-raising operation could serve as a clearinghouse for Salmonella serovar Typhimurium var. Copenhagen and perhaps other Salmonella serotypes.

Salmonella enterica subsp. enterica serovar Typhimurium var. Copenhagen is an O:5-negative variant of Salmonella serovar Typhimurium which was primarily reported to be found in pigeons. It is now frequently isolated from cattle, swine, and other animals.
However, I have read in other sources that only pigeons are in danger from this serotype.

If you Google for "salmonellosis pigeon" you will find a number of links.

In this link: http://jb.asm.org/cgi/reprint/186/9/2619.pdf
JOURNAL OF BACTERIOLOGY, May 2004, p. 2619–2628 Vol. 186, No. 9
0021-9193/04/$08.000 DOI: 10.1128/JB.186.9.2619–2628.2004
Copyright © 2004, American Society for Microbiology. All Rights Reserved.
The serotype Typhimurium phage types DT2 and DT99 are frequently isolated from pigeons, where they cause paratyphoid (5), but are rarely isolated from other bird or mammalian species (27). On this basis, the existence of a serotype Typhimurium “pigeon type” has been proposed....
Basically, use good hygiene methods, washing hands (especially before touching one's face, and the like), etc.

(No comment on Synolux -- haven't used it).

Larry
 

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Jo, sorry I can't advise you on Synulox because we have never used it but other members have and can advise you.

I'm attaching a link to Wikipedia's description of Synulox and I'm not sure but it doesn't sound like what you need.

How many doses of Synulox has Vivi had so far?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synulox
 

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Discussion Starter #59
Jo, sorry I can't advise you on Synulox because we have never used it but other members have and can advise you...
Hi Maggie!

Yes, I read the Wikipedia page about the Synulox earlier... (Sounded weird to me, too)

She's had two doses so far; the morning and the evening ones.

Ah, I hope it works! I asked for Baytril several times. Hopefully someone who has experience with it will come here soon to give some more info!

It was mentioned her at PT by at least Cynthia. I'll search for more info...

Thanks!

Jo/Ippychick :)
 

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Discussion Starter #60
Hello Ippychick,

Since you seemed to want extra verifiaction and reassurance, I decided to look up an actual quote for you, and found a small surprise at this link........

Hi Larry,

Oh wow! That was some interesting info, thanks for that!

I will keep up the (extra-) good hygiene, just in case... But it's still good to know, even if it was 'safe'.

Hopefully this medication will work~ if I had waited a few more hours, I would've got the meds you sent! But hoping for the best anyway!

Jo
 
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