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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi everyone,
We're currently at full capacity: 2 pet pigeons, 1 (now healed) broken foot pijie, 1 squeaker who Aias found close to death after having fallen out of his nest (very healthy now), and the newest addition is a juvenile with canker who is in very bad shape.

Aias found him standing in the street yesterday. He is puffed up, does very strange movements with his neck (made me think canker in the throat/neck/crop) and does have small amounts of canker visible in the throat. We gave some thin formula by tube feeding last night and 1/2 a Spartrix afterwards.

He was more alert today but still doing all kinds of strange postures. And still with visible canker. Last night, he threw up some of the formula, so today we gave a second 1/2 of Spartrix and then waited an hour before giving formula.

We finished feeding him a little while ago and now he's doing a weird thing where he slowly tilts forward till his beak almost touches the ground, then looks a bit startled, straightens up, and then starts the whole thing again. Over and over. What is going on??

His poops don't look too bad, mustardy-green with a little liquid. Not too many poops, but we haven't been feeding a whole lot, rehydrating first then gradually increasing the formula (given the vomiting, though that only happened once).

We're going to call tomorrow for an appointment at Animal General for Saturday...is there anything else we should do in the meantime? Any other meds we should give?

I was really hoping the Spartrix would work some magic overnight, but that didn't happen...am pretty worried about this one.

Thanks for your help!

Sabina
 

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Hi Sabina,

I'm not that experienced, but the symptons you describe with his neck & beak movements repeatedly touching the ground, in addition to the canker it could be a possible case of PMV. If that is the case, he needs to be kept seperate and apart from the other birds. It is highly contageous.

Hopefully somebody more experienced will give you better imput.

Please keep us posted.
 

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I've seen birds do that when they're very worn out. You've given food and basic medications, now it's for warmth, time, rest and safety I'm afraid. Good luck!

Pidgey
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
So far it doesn't look like PMV--no stargazing or anything like that. The neck movement looks more like he's uncomfortable. I guess we just have to wait and see if he gets better, as you said Pidgey. He is on a heating pad, has a shallow dish of water in his cage, and is getting formula that's on the thin side. I think I read doing 3 days of Spartrix? So 1 more 1/2 tab tomorrow? Oh and we moved, so now this pigeon is on a separate FLOOR from the other pijies, imagine that!!
Thanks for your thoughts,
Sabina
 

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Hi Sabina,



Consider to use "ACV-Water" for his drinking and formula mixing...4 Tablespoons to a Gallon...


If you have 'Medistatin' or 'Nystatin', use it also.



He could have a Yeast or Candida infection in his Crop and down from there...


Images?


As you know, 'Spartrix' can cause them to throw-up...so, spacing the 'pill' between meals is best.


I would would do the half-tab-a-day for 'five' days if it was me.


Do you have any antibiotics?




Good luck..!


Phil
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Hi Sabina,

Some strains of trich can be resistant to Carnidazole (the active ingredient in Spartrix) and you may have to try another canker medicine. But also sometimes it takes some time for the canker nodule to detach itself...it depends where it is.

I think I have seen movements like you describe, not PMV. Heaven knows what discomfort a pigeon feels when he has a canker nodule in his throat. I had one that would inflate half his throat, that was very peculiar and very worrying. I asked for advice Fred told me to feel down the side of the throat that wasn't inflating and that I would find a nodule there...he was right.

Cynthia
 

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i always use flagyl full 7-10 day course for trich, not sure how that differs from spartix. i will also debride any visible cankers with dilute betadine.
sounds to me like he has neuro symptoms, which could be any number of things , from head trauma to poisoning.
i'm curious to hear what the vet says
 

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Sabina, I can't add anything to what the others have said but just wanted to say HI to you and Aias and tell you I miss you!

I hope you're enjoying your new home - sounds like lots more room but I bet Aias misses the roof pigeons!

Good luck with this latest little one. It may be that part of the problem is weakness.
 

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We finished feeding him a little while ago and now he's doing a weird thing where he slowly tilts forward till his beak almost touches the ground, then looks a bit startled, straightens up, and then starts the whole thing again.
Since he has visible canker. Could it be canker in his throat and he trying to dislodge it himself? He could be trying to throw it up but can't. It may take a few more days of of spartrix.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
Thanks everyone. The Spartrix seems to be working now, he's not doing any more weird head movements. His mouth gets sticky and mucus-y, I guess that happens with canker? He's more alert today, actually has been pretty feisty since after the first day.

I forgot to call the Wild Bird Fund today, but I think since he's getting better, we'll just wait and see how 5 days of Spartrix does. It's about an hour each way to get there now.

Thanks Maggie!! It is MUCH bigger so we're pretty excited. We're taking forever to unpack, but hopefully we'll get it set up soon. And you're right, Aias definitely misses the roof pigeons a lot.

Phil, we're using ACV. We can get some Nystatin. Antibiotics-wise, we have meds for coccidiosis and we have Baytril.

Cynthia, what happens when the canker nodule dislodges? Does it dissolve or get digested? Do they throw it up? I tried to feel for nodules but didn't feel anything. But it must be there.

I think you're right Kippy about him trying to dislodge it himself, poor thing. Well thankfully he's not moving his neck in those crazy ways anymore, it was very disconcerting to watch.

So listen to this. The first night that Aias had brought this youngster home, he didn't tell me he had found another pigeon--he somehow always thinks it's a good thing to surprise me with. So I got home from work and went in to see the other baby we've had for the past few weeks (who is an adorable squeaker by the way) and instead I see this very puffed and contorting in every which way bird. And since he didn't TELL me we had another pigeon, I thought it was the baby and started CRYING and CRYING. He had moved the other baby upstairs and put this super sick one in his place. Oh my god, the scare I had, thinking our perfectly healthy happy baby had gotten so so sick since the morning. Oh and get this...he first acted all innocent, as in "what do you mean, what's wrong with the baby?"!!!! Then he saw me having a nervous breakdown and told me it was another bird. Can you imagine??? I was so relieved it wasn't the baby...and a bit sheepish I didn't realize it was another bird, they don't look remotely alike...AND then so worried about what was going on, I didn't even get around to yelling at him about it. I'll have to do that tomorrow...
 

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Hi Sabina,


The ACV is good...and if he is brightening and improving, could well be you are fine with what you are doing with no need of anything additional.


There are postures and ways of moving their necks and shoulders while standing, usually standing oddly 'tall'...which to me are associated with Crop infections, usully Candida...but Canker could do it I suppose.


Some inflaitory debris seems to dissolve, others do not...and what becomes of the debris when it is in the digestive tract, is that - far as I know - if high, and not dissolving, it can get thrown up and out through heir mouth...and if too low for that, and not dissolving, it gets passed on along and is masticated by their Gizzard and digested and gets made into poop...or if too low for that, then it just passes out between poops more or less no worse for wear.




Canker, once being treated with the meds, can often have a sort of 'mucousy' phase...visible in their mouth when it has been 'high' enough to do so.



What have the poops and urates been like color wise and so on?


And have the poops and urates changed since the meds?


Phil
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There are postures and ways of moving their necks and shoulders while standing, usually standing oddly 'tall'...which to me are associated with Crop infections, usully Candida...but Canker could do it I suppose.
I've had 2 in the past like that and one which went through the throwing up motion over and over. They were treated for canker and are fine.
I have one now that had the upright position and his upper back was hunched. He's doing fine now after a couple days of spartrix.
Canker can make them do some crazy stuff, I quess.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Well we're not so happy with how the bird looks today (a little too droopy), so I called the Wild Bird Fund and we're going to see a rehabber at 2pm today, will keep you posted.

Oh and I also noticed the crop looks kind of orange-ish, so that scared us as well...
 

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I'm sorry to hear the bird is not looking so good, but glad you are taking him to see the rehabber.

Please update us when you can, and thank you for all your care and kindness shown to our feral flock.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Well things are looking very badly for this bird. Rita was taken aback right away by how pale he was. And said he was also in some respiratory distress. So she took some blood from his toe to do a blood smear and ran it to a lab down the street. They said they had never seen so many white blood cells. He also has anemia and blood parasites. Fecal-wise, she said he was filled with gram negative bacteria and also had some yeast. She didn't think he had canker--she thought he was just dehydrated and caked with stuff. And she thought the mucus-yness was also from being dehydrated.

So she wanted to give vibramycin but didn't have any, so she gave us Baytril to give intramuscularly 0.12ml twice a day for 3 days, then 0.12ml orally twice a day for 4-7 days. She also gave us Nystatin. She said no more Spartrix. The IM injection part is tough cause this bird is sooo thin.

Anyway, the bird has just been lying down the last couple hours. Rita said the prognosis was bad. The poor baby is so cute...I really hope he can keep fighting till the medicine starts to work.
 

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Sabina, I'm really sorry to read this but, you know, miracles do happen and if he can just hold out until the meds kick in, he may stand a chance. If you get a chance check out the thread in the General Section that Kippy did on a "thing" one of her feral pigeons coughed up. Maybe your little guy has something similar.

Tell Aias he is a big tease for pulling that trick on you but since he rescued this little one, giving him a chance to live, I would forgive him. :)

You guys are terrific.
 

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Well things are looking very badly for this bird. Rita was taken aback right away by how pale he was. And said he was also in some respiratory distress. So she took some blood from his toe to do a blood smear and ran it to a lab down the street. They said they had never seen so many white blood cells. He also has anemia and blood parasites. Fecal-wise, she said he was filled with gram negative bacteria and also had some yeast. She didn't think he had canker--she thought he was just dehydrated and caked with stuff. And she thought the mucus-yness was also from being dehydrated.

So she wanted to give vibramycin but didn't have any, so she gave us Baytril to give intramuscularly 0.12ml twice a day for 3 days, then 0.12ml orally twice a day for 4-7 days. She also gave us Nystatin. She said no more Spartrix. The IM injection part is tough cause this bird is sooo thin.

Anyway, the bird has just been lying down the last couple hours. Rita said the prognosis was bad. The poor baby is so cute...I really hope he can keep fighting till the medicine starts to work.


Hi Sabrina.


SubQ injections of the right kind of re-hydration fluids...would have been good to do then...or, if not that, then Orally with Elctrolytes.


Also, treating for the Yeast infection - 'Medistatin'...'Nystatin'...


'Metronidazole' might help also with the Bacteria...


Provide definite warmth...


Good luck...



Any details on what kind of 'Blood Parasites'?



Phil
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I asked what kind of blood parasites but she said she'd have to send it out to find out. I had never encountered that (either on the forum or with our birds) so I was wondering what that meant.

The baby's a little better now, sitting instead of lying down. We went to feed him just now and his beak was all caked with I don't know what...formula from 4 hours ago? (We were advised to feed smaller amounts more frequently). Some of the formula squirted back out, which has happened the last couple times we fed him, as if there was an obstruction (we're tube feeding). But Rita didn't feel anything in the neck or the crop. And she wasn't sure why the crop has an orange area on it.

Oh so this bird is named Willie since Aias found him on the Williamsburg bridge. I was contemplating Willa as well.

I'll have to find the cord to upload some pics so you all can see what a sweet cute bird this is...hopefully tomorrow!
 

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Sabina,

I hope the pigeon pulls through.

I've never heard of dehydration causing a mucus buildup. Certainly, the mucus membranes can feel tacky, but I don't know that actual mucus would be produced. You said earlier that the canker was visible? I would tend to keep up the Spartrix just in case, especially if you've already started.

Can you swab out some of the mucus? If so, do you think he could then eat on his own?

I also hate giving IM injections on a very thin bird. What about doing the Baytril sub-q instead (some people do Baytril SQ in a pocket of fluids). For what it's worth, our avian vet said he would generally give Baytril sub-q rather than IM.

Jennifer
 
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