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The yellow/blue mosaic, was it a cockbird? I'm thinking some of these kinds of mosaics, where you have ash-red/blue and ash-yellow/blue could just be extreme flecking in cockbirds carrying the other color.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
The yellow/blue mosaic, was it a cockbird? I'm thinking some of these kinds of mosaics, where you have ash-red/blue and ash-yellow/blue could just be extreme flecking in cockbirds carrying the other color.
These are not my birds but the mosaics are infact mosaics. These birds belong to a friend of mine who's understanding of genetics is probably as good as anyone here in the states.
oh they are some PRETTY BIRDS can i have a few :)
Again, not mine lol. Just a friend of mine. Awesome rollers...great collers that still roll.
 

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Maybe I'm wrong but for me the first "toy stencil" looks like a kind of kite bronze and the second "toy stencil" looks like Undergrizzle.
I would agree with Dina when looking at the birds. Stencil would affect all the patterned areas, which is not the case in these to birds.

The first seems to be just bronze (which one, I cannot say), and the stencil/pencil on the flights of the second looks a lot like under-grizzle, but since I do not know the exact makeup of the birds, I will defer to the knowledge of the breeder.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I would agree with Dina when looking at the birds. Stencil would affect all the patterned areas, which is not the case in these to birds.

The first seems to be just bronze (which one, I cannot say), and the stencil/pencil on the flights of the second looks a lot like under-grizzle, but since I do not know the exact makeup of the birds, I will defer to the knowledge of the breeder.
I am not the breeder BUT the breeder is a well known man known for his knowledge in genetics so I'm going based off of what he said. Some of them may be carrying certain colors/modifiers and not showing them. I don't understand half of this stuff. I just know my basic colors and that's it.

Brent, some of the birds were bred for their colors. The mosaics are bred for their color but all the birds do roll :)
 

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I also agree with the bronze/undergrizzle statement. Pretty birds though.


Mosaics are supposed to be random mutations, so if he is getting consistant mosaics, he may be breeding something else. The pattern mosaics (as in, half spread, half non-spread) cannot be argued. But I'm still wondering if a lot of these "mosaics" (NOT just his, I mean in general) aren't just extreme flecking. These birds I'm referring to would have to be cockbirds and only be "mosaic" in their color, not pattern. I'm also wondering if the size/amount of flecking in split ash-red cockbirds can be inherited, as some birds have very heavy flecks from the beginning and others you really have to hunt for.


Does the breeder have internet access? He'd be a really good member to have around on the site for genetic discussions :) Particularly on his own birds, so we don't have to shoot the messenger, LOL.
 

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so you think a bird like below could be some kinda of genetic super flecking?

Yes I do. Especially from lofts with several mosaics being produced. For a "genetic anomally", some people sure do have a lot of them. Which is why I do believe there are true genetic freak mosaics, like the half spread, half non-spreads, etc. And then there may be some kind of crazy flecking "mock-mosaics" like this one. A red bar with very large blue flecks. It is bar on both colors, so it is very possible. I have had birds with large flecks that would, for example:
- Have a blue tail feather that shows the tail band and everything
- On a red check, show a blue check feather because the fleck covered that area

Almonds can also be mistaken for mosaics. There was someone on here that kept producing "mosaics" and they all looked like almonds with large patches of breaks.


Think about it. If you were to reduce the size of that large blue barred patch and the large patch throughout the neck/head, it would look like any other ash-red bar cockbird carrying blue.
 

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Yes I do. Especially from lofts with several mosaics being produced. For a "genetic anomally", some people sure do have a lot of them. Which is why I do believe there are true genetic freak mosaics, like the half spread, half non-spreads, etc. And then there may be some kind of crazy flecking "mock-mosaics" like this one. A red bar with very large blue flecks. It is bar on both colors, so it is very possible. I have had birds with large flecks that would, for example:
- Have a blue tail feather that shows the tail band and everything
- On a red check, show a blue check feather because the fleck covered that area

Almonds can also be mistaken for mosaics. There was someone on here that kept producing "mosaics" and they all looked like almonds with large patches of breaks.


Think about it. If you were to reduce the size of that large blue barred patch and the large patch throughout the neck/head, it would look like any other ash-red bar cockbird carrying blue.
I agree with Becky, mosaicism CANNOT be inherited, so I also think these mosaics are probably just ash-red split for blue, maybe even some form of almond.

Mosaics are believed to occur when one egg is fertilized by more than one sperm cell, but that is still under debate. What is not under debate is that a red/blue mosaic hen will only produce either red OR blue squabs when mated to a blue bar, NEVER another mosaic.

Of course these birds could be mosaic, but since they are EXTREMELY rare genetic abnormalities, it would be very unlikely that one breeder could have so many.
 

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I will say the first bird in the original post is for sure a true mosaic. The second one is kind of hard to tell what exactly is going on. I see black, maybe brown? And what looks like some kind of yellowy khaki color. That bird could possibly be almond. That would account for the yellowy color, the brownish color, and the black/blue. A mating test will show if it is or isn't almond. If not, then it'd say it was a mosaic (possibly a 3-way just based on what colors I THINK I see in the picture).
 

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Something I have thought about though. If mosaics are indeed formed by two sperm with one egg....well, naturally that is not supposed to happen. Only one is supposed to fertilize each egg. So I would go out on a limb and say maybe that hen's eggs have something "wrong" with them to allow this to happen. Perhaps that "wrong" thing is genetic or maybe it is environmental. But assuming it may be genetic...that could certainly increase the likelihood of having a couple other mosaics pop up in your loft. But then you would think that every baby that "messed up" hen would have, would be mosaic. But they aren't or we'd probably be looking at a lot more than 3 pictures. Maybe the window for fertilization is a little bigger, to possibly let two in but maybe two don't always get there at the same time :p I don't know. Just a lot of thinking out loud.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
It's always been stated and accepted as a fact that mosaics are merely a genetic mutation and an oddity/rarity. What my mentor has been able to do is actually produce a few mosaics. This year, he was able to breed, I think, 5 mosaics and he doesn't breed large numbers. He has about 120 or so rollers ALL TOGETHER.
 

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Which is why we think something else is going on here. That's a pretty good turnout in a year's time.
 
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