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Discussion Starter #1
I am wondering if anybody has seen this syptom and what might cause it. Pigeon stretches neck way out and shakes neck like when feeding a baby. Pigeon appears to be trying to clear a blockage but nothing comes out. Crop is empty.
 

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Could be crop issue/blockage, or canker or more. We need more symptoms, like is the bird eating and pooping well?
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Yes thats the movement. Do you have more information or links? Is this just a vomit? I have seen pigeons throwup. The action was a bit different. the birds I have seen do this had empty croos and no vomit came out. I wonder if there could be swelling or blockage just beyond the crop. I think the next part of the digestive tract called the proventriculus.
See:
http://mumtazticloft.com/PigeonBasicNeeds.asp
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Thanks Skyeking and Spirit Wings, I treated first for canker and coccidiosis with one tab of veta farm. Trizole. The pigeon still seemed blocked so I gave metranidazole. Then I observed watery dark green droppings so I surmised that it could be ecoli or paratyphoidand I gave Baytril. Since the pigeon had the meds I mentioned I think the next step is amoxicillian. I also wonder if the the pigeon may have ingested small strings from the Baden Superflyer seed bag.
 

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You didn't answer if he eats and how much. Does his mouth smells like fermented fruits or some sour thing? Then there is fermented food on the bottom of the crop and you should not feed him until the crop empties. Is his tongue green on the tip?


My last sick pigeon died after similar symptoms, liquid dark green droppings, "empty" vomiting. Nothing seemed to help, neither metronidazole, coccidia medicine or antibiotics.


I came to the conclusion that was something fungal blocking the digestive tract, leaving only water to pass. His tonque had a green tip, which is characteristic for Aspergillus and in mouth were some sort of gray deposits which might have been Candida so I think was having both Aspergillus and Candida.


Other possibility: poisoning with heavy metals (from pic seems you keep him in a cage and he could have bit the bars).





As a side note: from what I've read, in human as well animal medicine, fungi are best threated with Pau D'Arco, a food supplement with an extract from an Amazonian tree, though the plant in its initial state is more effective than the extract. Pau D'Arco is at least as good as conventional antifungal medication, but not toxic.

More info



.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Thanks for sharing Andre! He is out of his hospital cage flying about a little. He did eat on Sunday morning but it seems just a little bread Monday morning. And nothing after that. His crop has been completely empty. I left out many details because I am writing on a phone. I don't know much about fungus. I will have a look at my avian vet books. I did talk to my vet.
He has 30 years experience treating exclusively cage birds. I asked him if a bird passing water was a symptom of ecoli. He said there are many strains of ecoli some very virulent that could cause a bird to pass water. I asked him about treating with Amoxicillan if Baytril does not work and he said amoxicollian is no longer used by vets he said the new drug is called clavamox. I am observing my bird as I write. This morning I gave both Baytril and some amoxiillian. He seems a bit better. I think it is important for birds with possible blockage to exercise and fly if they can to help mechanically disloge blockage. I will see if I can include a picture from his hospial cage. He has a heat pad there is a white t-shirt on top.
 

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It also can be an object stuck in crop *or proventriculus or gissard) so a radiography would help. Try to feel through crop's skin if there is still food in it, especially in the area before the proventriculus, where you must feel a hole if the crop is empty.

Some of my birds periodically have e-coli invasions (I know is e-coli because I tested 3 or four of them) that manifested by vomiting (or trying to), corn-yellow or green-yellow transparent liquid droppings. Usually I reduce them to normal with a single injection with Lincospectin.



Is absolutely vital the bird to eat, else will have a downfall and die in few days or even just a day (if it has some sickness).

Feed him some defrosted peas. If you see he vomits them, boil them and made them a paste and give with a syringe + tube. Honey is more nutritive (I kept a bird only with honey for a week and heard about a case of three weeks) but quite sure will cause Candida to overgrow, so better no.

I would say to give him forcedly some grains too and see if he vomits them or they pass into body. If they pass into body, feed him only grains, as peas have very little solid substance (they are 80% water). Permanently smell his mouth and if you feel some sour / fermented smell, that mean is fermented food in crop and you have to massage the crop, trying to break the food in smaller parts to be digested.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Thanks for your very good ideas Andrei! Did you see the Colin Walker article on Canker. If not search Colin Walker Canker. I'm doing as he says rotating canker meds and giving drops of Baytril. i have a small braun Coffee Bean grinder. It cost $30 it can turn seeds to powder. i ground some raw peanut and added 4cc of water and a little exact baby food powder to thicken. I tube fed. I know he needs more food but no sence in trying to give more if this does unless he can digest and pass th 5cc. I like the idea of peas very much because they go down and stay down without chance of aspiration.

I did see some canker way down there today.
 

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I would say not follow some website advices / theories if you don't see them on other websites too and maybe not even then. On internet, false information spreads quite easily.


I tried too the grinded grains method and I don't think is very good, it leads to some sort of hard to digere paste inside the crop that may even be fatal.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Thanks for your ideas. I think it is water that is the critical thing. The exact baby food holds more water than anything.... Birds with blockage tend to go for peanuts because they are very easy to digest and they have a lot of energy. In my bean grider I only grid hulled sessamee, hulled sunflower and peanuts. Sometimes i grind calcium too...
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Thanks for the ikn8 I am wondering what meds or combination of meds works best. Here is what I have.
Medpet dimetridazole powder
Medpet Metronidazol 100 mg tabs
Medpet Ronsec Ronidazole Secranidazole combo tabs
Spartrix tabs from purchased in 2010

Tonight i pondered which med to give. I thought maybe the dimetridazole is best since it is a fine solution that can get through. The Ronsec pill might not disolve and disperse as well.
I have read many people recomend rotating canker meds i am giving the properly diluted dimetridazole in water via tube feeding a little at a time to simulate the amount pigeons drink.
The first day he got the Trizole, 2nd day metronidazole, then he got spartrix tonight 8ml of th diluted dimetridazole.
 

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superflyer, the flagyl or metro should be given for at least 7 days it really is not good to jump from one med to another without giving for a full course first.
If no amelioration appears in three days, it means is no canker and is useless to continue the metro treatment.


I would say: give metro for three days and if things don't start to improve, stop the metro course and give antibiotics for another three days. If neither after antibiotics things don't start to change, it means is neither canker or bacterial.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Thanks for the info. He has had baytril for more than three days and canker meds for more than three days. I am thinking of switching the antibiotics from baytril and amoxicillan to Trimdthoprim. I wondef if thats a good idea. Any thouts on the switch? He passed the 12 ml of dimetrizole water I gave.
I think if i give the Trimethoprim I will have to stop the canker meds so it might be better to stick with baytril, amoxicillian and metronidazol. If it is a virus than I can do nothing so it seems best to continue since it could be internal canker complicated with resistant bacteria like ecoli.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Thanks for the info. He has had baytril for more than three days and canker meds for more than three days. I am thinking of switching the antibiotics from baytril and amoxicillan to Trimdthoprim. I wondef if thats a good idea. Any thouts on the switch? He passed the 12 ml of dimetrizole water I gave.
I think if i give the Trimethoprim I will have to stop the canker meds so it might be better to stick with baytril, amoxicillian and metronidazol. If it is a virus than I can do nothing so it seems best to continue since it could be internal canker complicated with resistant bacteria like ecoli.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
His main syptom is craining the neck way far out then shaking quite a bit very forcefully
trying to vomit. He has passed water so he cannot be tottally blocked. He continues not eating.
I think it may be internal canker as described by Dr. Colin Walker. The green poop could have been due to the canker . I reported earlier that I thought I saw a whitish spot way down his throat by I have not seen anything like that again and it may have just been saliva.
 

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Sounds like your bird has canker. The best way to treat is with a tablet that you give directly. I would go with the Metronidazole. Give one 100 mg tablet, then cut them in half and give the half tablet once a day for 7 to 10 days.Don't keep changing the med. In rotating meds, that means using a med for a full treatment. Then next time you treat for the same thing you can use the same drug. If later down the road, you need to treat for the same thing again, you can then change to another drug.
Metro usually works well, but if not, then you can add another drug to it.

It often takes longer then 3 days, and stopping and changing drugs just messes with his system. And you can't always see canker, but doesn't mean it isn't there. The green droppings are because he isn't eating. Don't stop the Metro. If in 5 to 7 days he isn't better, then continue with the Metro and then add Baytril for 10 days. But don't think you will have to if you will just give the Metro for the 7 to 10 days. Switching around every few days is not going to help anything.
 

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If no amelioration appears in three days, it means is no canker and is useless to continue the metro treatment.


I would say: give metro for three days and if things don't start to improve, stop the metro course and give antibiotics for another three days. If neither after antibiotics things don't start to change, it means is neither canker or bacterial.
You really do need to research more before giving advice to others. Often it takes much longer before you see improvement. I have no idea where you get your 3 day idea. But it can take 2 weeks to cure a bird of canker. And the same goes for bacterial issues.By switching around on and off meds, you mess with his system, weaken the bird, and aren't curing anything. If you start a treatment, you finish it.

This bird is showing classic signs of canker, and if you start with a drug, then stop after a few days, what you are doing is giving the trich a chance to become resistant to the drug and come back stronger. Then when you try treating it again, it doesn't respond to the drug. Same with antibiotics. Please stop advising people to keep changing treatments.

If you want to try and cover most things, then give a good canker drug, and a good wide spectrum antibiotic for the 10 days.
 

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His main syptom is craining the neck way far out then shaking quite a bit very forcefully
trying to vomit. He has passed water so he cannot be tottally blocked. He continues not eating.
That shows that he feels something in his crop or neck that he wants to throw out. Might be a canker nodule but as well an object stuck in proventriculus. Have you tried to feel through the crop if he has some nodule on neck or in crop? Try to feel the hollow of the proventriculus in the lower part of the crop. If you don't feel the hollow, might be blocked with a nodule or solid object.
I think it may be internal canker as described by Dr. Colin Walker.
Canker is of two kinds:

-Dry Canker, which is under the form of yellow nodules growing in mouth, inside the neck or in crop and is manifested only at squakers
-Wet Canker or internal canker, in adult birds mostly.


You didn't mention if your bird is young or adult.

If is a nodule in crop is dry canker, not wet canker, I quess (hope I'm not wrong).

The green poop could have been due to the canker .
Is the kind of green that appears in your photo? Or in the meanwhile it turned to a bright green, in which case it means your bird is starving and that is more dangerous than any parasite. You have to forcedly feed him with wnough quantity of food.

I reported earlier that I thought I saw a whitish spot way down his throat by I have not seen anything like that again and it may have just been saliva.
That is possibly Candida, which is a white fungus (the scientifical name comes from a Latin word, candida meaning "white") and which may well explain his symptoms. Or again, it can be canker.



This bird is showing classic signs of canker
Are you refering to the vomiting or perhaps to the aspect of dropping? Are you sure it can't be something else?

Vomiting can be caused by a lot of things. Today for example, two of my pigeons trying to voti, one because has an ever-reoccuring e-coli (the symptom, the green-yellowish droppings vanish after an Enrofloxacin tablet) and other because I gave a medicine for coccidia that caused nausea.

If you want to try and cover most things, then give a good canker drug, and a good wide spectrum antibiotic for the 10 days.
Or better make some lab tests, if possible. I agree that in most cases is canker or bacteria, but yet can be Candida or stuck object.
 
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