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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Does anyone here own a proven producer hen? If so, what's the price tag on a proven producer hen? I've been told that trying to part with a proven producer hen is like pulling teeth without anethesia. Thoughts?
 

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I have a daughter of Mr In the Money that bred two x1st, a 3rd in Money races and this years World Ace Challenge money winner for me with different cocks. One 1st was the Colorado Gold Rush. I bought her from a good friend that bred her, he was selling out but now regrets selling everything and wants to buy her back. He has a son that flew back to him, and I will probably give him a daughter as a gift. She sold for $525.00 because he didn't list what she had bred, but he told me. You are right, I would rather have teeth pulled. I have some other hens that have bred winners, and a hen that bred my Flamingo bird this year that came in 49 seconds behind 1st in the 400. A good hen is harder to find than a good male, and when they are proven they are worth every effort to hang on to. I always thought the only way to get the best birds were through a gift, death, or divorce, now I have to add sellout.
 

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Good point Randy. But even finding a proven hen is hard!
Yes, if the hen has proven itself, why would I part with it. Would you part with a hen that produces you winners? Point is what Randy said, if you know where the hen came from get a sister from the same parents if you can.

Tony
 

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This past year I had her with Blue Typhoon, an Elecric Czech cock. Before that she was mated to a Golden Mattens/Aviator cock, Right now she has two babies mated to a full brother to that Mattens/Aviator cock that also bred winners. The dams side of that hen is Mattens, Mr In The Money was paired with a Mattens daughter.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
The Golden Mattens/Mr. In the Money cross has bred some nice youngsters. I had one in my loft three years ago but it died.

My next quest would be to find a proven hen!
 

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Kal-El, When you say proven, could you define that? Are you saying any bird that has produced a combine winner even if it has been bred more than one year? Or are you refering to a bird that is a consistant producer year after year? I personally find it harder to find a great cock bird than hens.
Ken
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Good question Ken. I think we as pigeon men look for consistency in our birds. Proven hen in terms of being able to produce birds that clock in the top 5% at the combine level for several years. Maybe that's asking too much, but I think any one of us who ever gets to own such a hen, would rather have our teeth pulled than to part with her.

I hope that answers your question, and in turn, you can answer mine.
 

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I totally agree with your definition of a good breeder. Consistancy is the single most important factor. I have only 3 hens in my loft that I can say for sure they will produce more than 1 good YB each year. I have several that always give me at least one but I would move them out in a heart beat for the next consistant hen I come across. Now as to the price, The 3 hens I have I wouldn't part with for less than 5,000.00 each as that is probably what I have spent in duds before acquiring these. (I was a slow learner!!!)
Part of the problem as I see it, is it takes so long to pair the bird to several different mates to find out if the hen or cock is the potent one and you lose several years of quality breeding before you figure it out. After 6 years of breeding I am just getting to the point that I can say those 7 hens and these 10 cocks are the main producers of my winners and the next generation of breeders. Wish someone could come up with a better system of selection!!
 

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A proven hen to me is one that breeds birds that consistantly score high at the club level. Reason for that is because we only race one combine race a year. The birds would have to be in the top ten a few time at least before I think they are good. Everyone had better have at least one hen the breeds birds like this or you aren't doing very good racing! I have a few that are this good and would ask big money for them. I had to purchase many birds and do alot of work to find these birds and the mates that worked together. I offen switch pairings 2 or 3 times in one season. This is alot of work.
 

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Good question Ken. I think we as pigeon men look for consistency in our birds. Proven hen in terms of being able to produce birds that clock in the top 5% at the combine level for several years. Maybe that's asking too much, but I think any one of us who ever gets to own such a hen, would rather have our teeth pulled than to part with her.

I hope that answers your question, and in turn, you can answer mine.
So the hen is supposed to produce birds of the above criteria despite which cock it is mated to ? Or are there criterias for the cock also ?
 

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I would say that defining a hen as "proven", could only be used in the context of stating that it has produced good offspring with several different cocks.

If any hen produced good racing offspring with just one or two cocks but failed to do so with other cocks, then that hen has possibilities. But is not proven, IMO. It could have just been the cocks themselves that were the "factor" in getting good offspring.

I believe that the only true diffinition of "proven", should and could, only be used to describe "pairs" and not individual cocks or hens. In 90% of the cases. Because there are always exceptions to everything, I can not say 100%.

But pairings are the way to go, IMO. Not individual birds. A decent producing hen, coupled with a decent producing cock. Might just "hit" and produce exceptional young birds. It is largely a matter of luck and trial and error. Although admittedly some flyers seem to have a knack or gift for making good and proper pairings. With most of us, it is hit and miss. Trial and error.

Sure Bet might produce nice racers no matter who he was put with. But he is an exception and not the rule.

Expecting to find the exceptional bird, is expecting a lot. There are only a basketfull in the country I believe, and unless you are real lucky. You probably can't touch them for under 2500 or anywhere close to that.

As to the initial question you posed. I suppose that everyone here owns a proven producer hen, if they race and win.

Except me :)
 

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This past year I had her with Blue Typhoon, an Elecric Czech cock. Before that she was mated to a Golden Mattens/Aviator cock, Right now she has two babies mated to a full brother to that Mattens/Aviator cock that also bred winners. The dams side of that hen is Mattens, Mr In The Money was paired with a Mattens daughter.
I also have that same combination with mattens. That Means its a SpeedShop loft bird if I'm Correct? Also, your names sounds familiar. Jim Hale, I think I purchased birds from you a while back hehe, your in my email list. Just can't think of it at the moment. Speedshop did alot of pairings with the mattens stuff. This year I finally decided to breed out of my mattens/money cock we'll see how it turns out, so far I've gotten blacks and slates from him when paired to an inbred hekkenklak.

I've heard and seen the combination on vanmoorsels and they have won many small futurities and one loft races. The past year they even scored in the vegas race . I also heard that Gabler took the family out of the WOW breeding program as well so don't know if it is for marketing or not but I might just havve to hold my birds for a while and maybe catch the wave.
 

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You are right, she is a hen that Mike bred. I talked with Jim about a month ago and he said he knew someone in California that wanted to buy Money directs. I'm not selling. LOL Money/Ken Cristopher Van Loon won the GHC last year, but Money birds are winning worldwide even South Africa. You should hang on to that bird! I have two Money/Champ Stamp grchildren that I have paired with two of Kens best Van Loons. Last year I got two excellent late hatches from the one pairing, so nice they are going big time this year.
 

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As long as they are doing well for you guys also! Don't waste feed if urs don't do any good and others do:) where has mr.$$$ gone anyways? Canada?
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Proven as in produce consistent young that score with any cocks.

And how much would I pay? A couple Ks.
 
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