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I'm sure sorry this didn't self resolve, but I'm glad you were able to get the bird to the vet. Hopefully things will still resolve on their own, but if not, then the bird is definitely where it needs to be right now. Hopefully this is just an egg that hasn't passed through yet and will do so on its own.

Terry
 

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Jenfer, It is always hard to know what is going on but I'm really glad you took her to the vet. I hope she improves rapidly and I'll remember her in my prayers.
 

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Discussion Starter #23
Update on Freya:

I'm told her urates are now green, which occurs with either liver disease or psittacosis. The vet has been tube feeding her. She didn't have time to answer more questions but said I could pick her up tonight and she'd give me medications and maybe take another x-ray and draw blood.

I'm panicking and don't know what's going on. I think she *must* have a second egg in her, even if the shell isn't formed, and it doesn't make sense to me that she would have an additional problem that's completed unrelated.

Could the barium cause liver problems that cause green urates???

Help?

Jennifer
 

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I've seen a few with oviduct problems that Baytril didn't resolve. In those cases, I've had Trimethoprim/Sulfa work much better, usually extended for two to three weeks. On another, Keflex (Cephalexin) did the trick.

Pidgey
 

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Discussion Starter #25
I've seen a few with oviduct problems that Baytril didn't resolve. In those cases, I've had Trimethoprim/Sulfa work much better, usually extended for two to three weeks. On another, Keflex (Cephalexin) did the trick.
Thanks, I'll ask about this tonight. I'm extremely confused at this point. If the second egg is unshelled and *somewhere* in her body, does it need to be evacuated? Could the second egg be *causing* the green urates and ileus?
 

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Hi Jennifer,

I'm sorry things aren't going along as well as we all had hoped. I don't know the answer to your question about the barium possibly causing liver problems. Hopefully another member will be along with the answer.

Like you, I also suspect that there is another egg inside that is causing these problems.

I would think that psittacosis is unlikely but certainly not impossible.

Please keep us posted.

Terry
 

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Barium does not cause liver problems, it is not absorbed by the body, just passes through. As for green poops, I've seen them in healthy birds and in coccidiosis and starvation. Formula can cause green poops.
The egg develops in the abdomen then descneds into the uterus where the shell is formed and then is passed out. So, hopefully she willpass it soon.

Reti
 

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Discussion Starter #28
It's not her poops that are bright green--it's the urates. But I was wondering if she could have hepatic lipidosis from not eating, and if that would cause the green urates. In which case, I guess the treatment would be tube feeding until her condition improves.

The first egg was laid by early evening Friday. I'm thinking that by now the second must be in the uterus waiting for the shell. If there isn't enough calcium and the shell doesn't form, would the egg contents need to be evacuated from her uterus, or would we just give her extra calcium? (I don't know if the vet was doing this overnight.)

I've decided to bring her to another avian vet tomorrow who can do an ultrasound. Hopefully that will shed light on what is going on with her. I'm just frustrated because I want to help her, but I just keep asking a lot of questions, and the vet doesn't have answers.

Thanks,
Jennifer
 

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Most of the time, I see green urates with Paratyphoid and treat with Baytril and Metronidazole. It's just that hens who develop oviduct problems often seem to need that something else that comes from the Trimethoprim/Sulfa. A lot of cases that we get have "polymicrobial infections", meaning they're sick with several things at the same time.

Pidgey
 

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Discussion Starter #30 (Edited)
Freya's back home now. The vet gave me doxycycline to give her for 3-4 weeks. She said the barium was moving through now, and that there was no indication there was a second egg (the opacity she saw on the x-ray initially was nothing, she said). I asked about the tri-sulfa and she said she would do doxy.

She was looking alert and well at the vet. Once we got home, she drank and ate some seeds when I held them up to her (she's perched). But now she's puffed up again. I'm attaching a pic of her droppings.

Could there have been just one egg? If there is a second one and it's not showing on x-ray, does anyone have ideas on what that means?

I have copies of the x-rays, but I'm not how to reproduce them here.

Thanks,
Jennifer
 

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Could be she isn't eating enough. Have you been hand feeding her? I think it might be a good idea because those do look like starvation poops to me.
The seeds in the picture...have those been tossed or did she vomit them?
 

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Discussion Starter #32
Could be she isn't eating enough. Have you been hand feeding her? I think it might be a good idea because those do look like starvation poops to me.
The seeds in the picture...have those been tossed or did she vomit them?
Over the weekend, she didn't seem interested in eating even when I offered seeds. Sunday she was refusing water too (she usually drinks if I hold her water dish under her beak). When you say hand feeding, do you mean putting seeds in her mouth, or simply holding the dish in front of her?

She ate some just now when I did the latter. The vet had said to tube feed tonight, but I know it will be stressful for her, so I'm debating whether I should or if I should just assist feed her more seeds. She's lost 20 grams in the last day or two (she weighs in at 320 grams now; her typical is 340-360).

Those seeds in the photo were tossed around. No vomit.

I'm also trying to decide whether I should haul her to the second avian vet tomorrow for more diagnostics or if the stress will just set her back. She has these periods of looking alert, but then there are times when she'll sit completely puffed up with her eyes closed.

I just gave her her doxy dose just now.

Thanks!
Jennifer
 

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Discussion Starter #33 (Edited)
Here's the latest update on Freya.

The second vet did an ultrasound and said there's definitely no second egg. She recommended continuing on the doxy and monitoring her.

She also said that she would not use a calcium/vitamin D product in the water because of the risk of vitamin D toxicity. (And here I just ordered a bunch of bottles of Calcivet.) There is grit in her gizzard on x-ray, so she thought that would provide enough calcium. I'm a bit confused as to whether I should be supplementing D at this point--she did say I could use a multivitamin supplement like Prime or Nekton, but those also have vitamin D in them, so I don't know why the risk of toxicity would be less than way than with Calcivet. Anyone have any ideas on the vitamin D issue?

She also said there wasn't really an accurate way to assess through blood tests whether she was getting enough calcium.

And since she's on doxy, she said I probably shouldn't supplement calcium, since calcium binds tetracycline antibiotics.

The droppings in the picture she said were typical barium droppings. They come out a seafoamy green. I'm wondering if this is what the first vet took for "lime green urates," because she sure isn't passing those now.

I still think it's odd that there isn't a second egg, especially with the way she was acting, but I guess I'll just wait and see how she does.

Jennifer
 
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