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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
What will be the outcome of mating a faded brown t-check cock who has a ton of kite in his flights, to an almond hen? Will it be benefitial to almond coloration?
 

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Kite can greatly improve the quality of Almonds, though the best almonds are Kite and split for RR. This helps give a nice dark ground color. The brown might also help the expression a little. I am assuming the cock is het. faded.

You will get
Cocks (All will be blue split for brown)
50% Het. Almond
50% Almond split for faded (I've never seen such a bird, but I assume they'd probably be white or near-white). The two genes together may also be lethal, I am not sure.

Hens (Hemizygous):
50% Faded Brown
50% Brown
 

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Kite can greatly improve the quality of Almonds, though the best almonds are Kite and split for RR. This helps give a nice dark ground color. The brown might also help the expression a little. I am assuming the cock is het. faded.

You will get
Cocks (All will be blue split for brown)
50% Het. Almond
50% Almond split for faded (I've never seen such a bird, but I assume they'd probably be white or near-white). The two genes together may also be lethal, I am not sure.

Hens (Hemizygous):
50% Faded Brown
50% Brown
Nice work Rudolph - Would you agree the phenotypes on the cockbirds would double themselves depending on which colour the Almond is linked too?

Then again with the combination of Faded, Almond, Brown and Blue in the cockbirds.

Could you get taking linkage into account

Almond blue split brown
Blue split Almond brown
Faded blue split almond brown
Blue Almond split faded brown

So four phenotypes in the cockbirds? Or is there more I am forgetting?
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Kite can greatly improve the quality of Almonds, though the best almonds are Kite and split for RR. This helps give a nice dark ground color. The brown might also help the expression a little. I am assuming the cock is het. faded.
You will get
Cocks (All will be blue split for brown)
50% Het. Almond
50% Almond split for faded (I've never seen such a bird, but I assume they'd probably be white or near-white). The two genes together may also be lethal, I am not sur
Hens (Hemizygous):
50% Faded Brown
50% Brown
Thanks Rudolph and Evan. Yes the cock is het. faded and possibly het. rec. red. Hen is also het. rec. red.
 

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Nice work Rudolph - Would you agree the phenotypes on the cockbirds would double themselves depending on which colour the Almond is linked too?

Then again with the combination of Faded, Almond, Brown and Blue in the cockbirds.

Could you get taking linkage into account

Almond blue split brown
Blue split Almond brown
Faded blue split almond brown
Blue Almond split faded brown

So four phenotypes in the cockbirds? Or is there more I am forgetting?
I try to leave linkage out of it, but since we're there now. If anyone is new to the idea of chromosomal linkage of genes, I recommend you skip this post.

Remember that crossover can only happen when sperm is formed. Once the chromosome reaches the offspring it is set like that for life. Look up mitosis and meiosis in wikipedia for more detail.

Thus the homozygous brown het. faded cock (StFb // St+b)would produce 2 types of sperm StFb or St+b whether crossover happens or not.

Thus the cock birds from this mating could never have almond and brown on the same chromosome. Since the hen is blue almond, the cocks from this pair will always have almond linked to blue.

Crossover would be possible in the sons, and would produce the linkage of almond to brown. It is very important to remember though that the almond locus is VERY closely linked to the color locus (I think the crossover rate is less than 4 percent).
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Many thanks to both of you. I hadn't even thought of all the possibilities which you mentioned. I was only wondering what the faded and almond genes would do together in a cock bird and it sounds like they will act the same as ****. state of either factor acting alone. I am surprised to hear that there's only a four percent chance of producing a brown almond from the sons. Even if I'd mate the almond sons to brown hens?
 

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I have to check up non the exact numbers, I have an email somewhere, but yes, I think crossover between the almond locus and color locus is rare.

That just means you will not breed many Stb//St+b birds, you can still breed almonds split for brown Stb+//St+b, and because of the way almond works, you'll probably see some brown.

PS: I found the e-mail Richard Cryberg wrote.
"For the linkage between St and B+ the linkage is usually stated as about 1% cross over. The 95% confidence range is something like .1% to 4 or 5%."
 

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Slightly off subject but what is the crossover rate for the dilute and reduced locus? Just to put some perspective on things?
 

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I have no idea ... the mail from RC had no details about that.

Imagine trying to create an almond, ash-red, dilute, reduced chromosome ...

What would a (St B^A r d) // - hen look like?

The crossover rate between the color and dilute locus is about 45% though, if that helps give some perspective. There seems to be two loosely linked allele clusters on the chromosome, B and St locus at one end and R and D locus at the other.

I wonder if anyone has ever bred a dilute reduced? I'd love to see that! Since reduced is rather rare compared to almond - at least where I live - I doubt there will be many such birds around. At least you know once the tow are joined on a chromosome they will rarely split apart again, just like the ash-red linked almonds.
 

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I have a reduced (spread I think ) homer, Here she is here. She came from a loft full of pale birds too. Might put her to my ASR cock that carries dilute but first I would like to get a few BC's to racers to get some good homing ability in them.

 

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Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
Rudolph, here is a pic of one of my reduced dilute t-check spread brown rollers. I've also raised some reduced dilute t-check blues (silvers), their wing shield and bib are an orange yellow on a washed out silver.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Wow, Very interesting bird.

Did you attain the crossover yourself?
I'm not sure about the crossover to dilute because I purchased a reduced rec. red at one time who, when mated to a silver hen, produced some dilute sons carrying reduced who produced reduced dilute daughters. The crossover to brown occured three years ago when I introduced some dilute brown barless into the mix. Still haven't attained my goal of reduced spread barless though.:(
 

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I saw a loft full of spread and plain reduced homers a few weeks back, The spread ones were all identical with the checks showing some variance, the barred ones were also all identical. I did not observe any difference in the spread reduced birds
 

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I never knew that the pattern is exposed in reduced spread birds? Do T-pattern spread reduced and bar spread reduced look different?

I've always wanted some reduced homers, but so far haven't been able to find any close-by.
Rudolph,

photos of reduced black masking bar and reduced black masking chequer.
 

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I'm not sure about the crossover to dilute because I purchased a reduced rec. red at one time who, when mated to a silver hen, produced some dilute sons carrying reduced who produced reduced dilute daughters. The crossover to brown occured three years ago when I introduced some dilute brown barless into the mix. Still haven't attained my goal of reduced spread barless though.:(
This bird is reduced spread brown chequer; I would have expected a dilute of the same genotype to be almost white.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 · (Edited)
Is this roller, who is out of my reduced family, something other than reduced spread blue bar? Its parents were a blue bar cock carrying reduced from his mother and a dun bar hen (not silver bar).
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
This bird is reduced spread brown chequer; I would have expected a dilute of the same genotype to be almost white.
I concluded that it was dilute brown because it had pink eyes as a squeaker. Do reduced browns have pink eyes?
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I'm thinking that smokey and dirty genes alter the expressions of reduced quite dramatically. Many of the blues and browns produced from my reduced are very dark (dirty).
 
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