[[MN]eXist^_^]

Have any of you's out there ever fly or try breeding this way? and was it successful?

If so what did you do with this mating the following year? (from the offspring?)

Thx.

 

[SmithFamilyLoft]

Have any of you's out there ever fly or try breeding this way? and was it successful?

If so what did you do with this mating the following year? (from the offspring?)

Thx.

And...or....brother to sister,...well I do what I do to all pairings and the resulting offspring...I race them !!

I have bred two generations of brother x sister, and they were still competitive. I use a breeding software program which shows the % of inbreeding, and so I can look at those %'s and tell in an instant, how really inbred a bird is.

Once you get a pre-potent bird or two in your loft, you end up with a lot of sons and daughters, and grand kids, 1/2 brothers and sisters, and cousins. The pre-potent bird can end up several times, on both sides.

In your example, if the pairing really does produce a great pigeon, and that is the important thing, then it can be paired to 1/2 brothers or sisters, aunts or uncles, or even back to it's own sire or dam.

Did you see the chart I shared on another thread ?

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f41/linebreeding-inbreading-32990.html

If you really own a really super bird, then IMO, you will want to breed them 1st of all to your best cocks or hens, whatever the case may be, and then the best offspring should be mated back to your super bird. If you end up with some great racers then fanstatic ! Breed those to some of their siblings and other such pairings. You need to contemplate the day that super bird is no longer around. And you want and need offspring and grand kids, which are even better to take their place.

 

[Lovelace]

Smithfamilyloft, If you don't mind me asking what kind of software program do you Have?

 

[[MN]eXist^_^]

Thanks warren, I will be flying a couple of inbreds to see what they can do this yr.

 

[SmithFamilyLoft]

Smithfamilyloft, If you don't mind me asking what kind of software program do you Have?

For my breeding analysis I use Breeders Assistance For Birds see:

http://www.tenset.co.uk/

It was not designed for pigeons, but for parakeets and such. For my purposes, I like it, because I can work with 8 generations at a time.

Then of course for race records and the like, the very popular Hawkeye Loft Manager 2007 Professional. see: http://www.comproware.com/

Which of course was designed for your typical racing loft.

 

[Lovelace]

Thanks Mr. Warren

 

[hillfamilyloft]

Some train of thought that comes up in many reading about breeding birds is that you inbreed and line-breed to keep your bloodline consistent and outcross for your flying birds. A thought is to take those outcross birds and breed them then to a bird with similar blood, outcross the offspring and repeat the process.

One thing that made sense to me that I heard from one of my mentors is that you can breed brother and sister from birds whose parents were outcrossed or from non similar bloodlines and get success, but to not breed brothers and sisters from line or inbred birds. His theory was that too much similar bloodline is detrimental to the process.

My thoughts are that as my key breeders get a bit older that I will then put them with grandchildren or other similar blooded birds to capture their blood in future breeders.

I do like cousin to cousin or aunt/uncle to niece/nephew breedings. You will see this method in many of the Janssen pedigrees.

Randy

 

[hillfamilyloft]

Something that I did not mention is the method of taking offspring off your best say four pairs of not so similar blooded breeding pairs, cross the best fliers of these birds, take the best fliers off of these crosses and then cross them back in with similar bloodlines up the pedigree. Say Grandfather/granddaughter or Uncle/niece. My methods are much more informal than say Warren's who has studied genetics much more than I. I do rely on stock sense mixed with these breeding methods. Also this being only my fifth year of breeding does not give me a lot of time to test these methods.

Randy

 

[cutter]

as a flyer who also studies breeding here is a trick

Breed on the 5 x 5 that is 2 birds with the same breeding on both side of your ped in the first 5 lines min the more the better

 

[pigeon_racer]

SmithFamilyLoft,

Thanks for the info Warren!!

Ralph

 

[[MN]eXist^_^]

Thanks for the info, i guess itll take some years to figure these things out to see what works. Especially if i want to put a bird 7 times in the ped without breeding runts everyyear. The pigeon game i tell ya.

 

[whitesnmore]

Yeah isnt the game fun. Especially when 10 years from now some one will come along and tell us we have all been doing it wrong for the last 20 years!!!!!!!
Ken

 

[g0ldenb0y55]

Randy - What is an 'outcross"?

 

[cutter]

[MN]eXist

All my race birds are breed the same way and i never get runts. I am very seletive as to what goes into stock the most important part of breeding race pigeons is what goes down there throat when they are in the nest plenty of protein. The breeding on this line came from Italy and whippets. The best greyhound in Australia some years ago was a dog called Tamlee he not only won everything he also produced and some of the best greyhounds in the world today carry his blood and if you go to the greyhound racing and breeding database you will see that some of the best greyhounds here in Australia carry him in there pedigrees from 5 to 8 times

 

[[MN]eXist^_^]

The earlier generations in ur soonzjens ped looks like how the janssens birds were bred awhile ago or similar to that. Seems like it keeps the line pretty strong and intact the way you do this.

 

[SmithFamilyLoft]

Thanks for the info, i guess itll take some years to figure these things out to see what works. Especially if i want to put a bird 7 times in the ped without breeding runts everyyear. The pigeon game i tell ya.

Where did you come up with the 7 from ? I keep thinking of other tidbits of information, and might be worth mentioning here. What you may very well find, is that not all families of pigeons will take to very close breeding. I don't know why this is, but it has come up in conversations enough times, that it appears to be one of those "facts".

Like so many other things in life, and in pigeons, some tools are great for a selected task, but if it is used for the wrong job, it's not going to get the job done, and in some cases, can do more harm then good.

I have always felt, that a fair number of fanciers look at in-breeding as some sort of panacea. If you are trying to improve the quality of your colony, simply breeding every cock in your loft to it's dam, and breeding every hen to her sire, is not IMO going to magically produce a great bunch of racers.

I don't know the truth of this statement, but I was told of a great master pigeon breeder who did very little if any close breeding. The name escapes me. He bred for a very particular type and body style. He constantly brought in birds with the "look" he was after. He chose to breed from a very diverse group, except for the traits he was looking for. Maybe that was er...uh...winning races, and with a certain look ?.....

It has been said on these threads many times, Re Lee had shared this many times. The In-Breeding sets the quality or traits where you are right now....it does not move you forward. Constant long term inbreeding, does not improve the quality of your stock. After awhile, they typically won't even be competitive. The quality of their immune system will often decrease. Their egg production will often decrease. So, IMO, it is not a long term solution. I suspect that long before one get's to the bottom of that In-Breeding Chart I shared, a complete outcross would be needed and desired.

Well, I have beaten this to death...as long as those interested in the process understand, it's like working with a very sharp knife, if you are not careful, you can cut yourself.

 

[[MN]eXist^_^]

I believe also that not all families can take inbreeding well found that out first hand well going about to have pigeons to have the same body type traits ect. It'll take a while. Seems like their are two types if breeders ones who breed for bloodlines and those who breed for body type and traits. Oh yea those who breed to sell, and there are of these than the other 2 above.

 

[[MN]eXist^_^]

Well starting off new I never bought A same family. my birds are from all over. It'll take me sometime to figure what I'm going to do, like many of you have done

 

[SmithFamilyLoft]

I believe also that not all families can take inbreeding well found that out first hand well going about to have pigeons to have the same body type traits ect. It'll take a while. Seems like their are two types if breeders ones who breed for bloodlines and those who breed for body type and traits. Oh yea those who breed to sell, and there are of these than the other 2 above.

Well...I think you forgot another very important classification. And the reality is, IMO, that it is very distinct from the above listed types of breeders. And even though it is more often used as a marketing or advertising slogan, then an actual breeding style. It is in a class all by itself. It is no respecter of strain, nor of pedigree.

It is the breeder whose focus is on Performance. Although many will claim that is what they are doing, they are in reality, in one of the other classifications.

I like to think that my methods and focus, is indeed centered on this breeding style. I wasn't always there, as it has been a growing and learning process. The birds in my loft today, are the result of following the performace. It took me down roads I did not think exsisted, and took me to some strange places. I can't follow a breeding chart like I shared here, because my methods dictate that I follow where performance shows up. And that applies not only to racing performance, but breeding performance.

And as strange as it may seem, it is sometimes a very lonely road. Because as an example, when people write or visit, they want for the most part, a pretty pedigree, and a "Pure" bloodline, and a famous name with commercial value. Rarely if ever, does someone inquire about securing a pigeon which can be very competive in say a One Loft Race, or in Combine competition.

They are seeking all the wrong things, and looking in all the wrong places, IMO. But, who am I to educate the masses ? My job, is to produce very fast and competive pigeons, and when the other guys put up money to race, I'm not going to be offering them pointers on how to beat me. I might be a few fries short of a Happy Meal, but I ain't stupid !