[pdpbison]

Lone feral after everyone else flew off...got her gathered up...very smelly poop-butt, so, onto the Butt-Bath...would not dissolve off...felt gritty, then I realize there are lots of tiny Egg-Shell bits coming loose...

Ohhhhh-boy..


Once half-way-cleaned off by washing, I look, suspecting a serious problem...and I see a small oval 'hole' lined with 'hard white'...hole is about 1/4 x 3/8ths of an inch...and leads 'in'...almost like a short piece of Soda-Straw in her belly.

Hole is about 1/2 an inch up and to the side, of her Vet.


Started her on 'Divet' and 'Enrofloxyn' Tablets...she'd eaten with the felals...good weight, but fairly weak.


Older hen...



Anyway, Pictures and whatever else soon...

Just wanted to see if anyone had any general advice or info so far.


I will try for bringing her to the Vet's tomorrow...


Pidgey?


Are you there?




Phil
l v

 

[Pidgey]

No, I'm not all there, Phil... never was, actually.

Mighta' gotten shot and now there's a hole. Without cleaning it up and looking at it, you're going to have a hard time assessing what to do. It's possible that it will seal itself up in time as long as there's no debris holding it open. If it looks like you're describing, then it'd need an endoscopic look (sounds invasive, but it doesn't have to be--the hole's already there) to get an idea what would need to be done. Or surgery. Because if there's bowel leakage, it would have to be addressed. In the old days, they'd call that getting "gutshot".

Pidgey

 

[pdpbison]

Hi Pidgey,


Have had some other matters I had to do here, before I cangetto part two of her exam...plus, she was pretty upset initially...


No Bowel leakage was apearent...getting a clean fresh cage arranged now for seeing poops/urates...


Yes...might have been 'shot' but it'd be an odd angle for it...but if so, I would guess it hit an Egg...


The 'would not wash off' stuff glueing her Feathers around her Vent area...is dried Albumen of course.


Anyhooo...a little more on other matters, then back to her...


Thanks!


Phil
l v

 

[Pidgey]

You'd far rather it was the oviduct, that's for sure. However, that still wouldn't be without problems because if the hole through the abdominal wall were to be sealed without addressing the hole in the oviduct, then you'd end up with something like I had with Winter--egg material getting out into the abdominal cavity on a somewhat continuous basis. You can manage it in the short term with antibiotics, but only for so long. Metronidazole is good for the typical anaerobic bacteria in gut infections, by the way. Keflex is good, but you don't want to go over ten days with it.

Pidgey

 

[pdpbison]

Hi Pidgey,




http://public.fotki.com/PhilBphil/sept-11th-08--feral/



I tried a second exam...hard to do alone, and she has come around enough in ythe trusting-department to let me lay her on an incline, on her Back ( ohhh, for fifteen seconds or so, then she loses patience with it...) so I can see the area in question...but, I could not get a good look yet, so we will try again later.


'Metronidaole'...yes...I'd forgotten it earlier...will do now...( 'Done' ).



I called the Vets...they'll call back in the morning.


She is a little 'keely', but thank goodness, not what one would call 'light'.


Phil
l v

 

[pdpbison]

Back-from-the-Vets now...



Fistula was definitely present and had clogged with more Egg-Shell and old dried Yolk debris since my seeing it yesterday.


With me holding her, Doc used a stout narrow Q-Tip and prized out what we felt represented the remains of two hard-shelled, crushed Eggs.


No discernable infection-debris or inflamitory process was present in the Egg Debris or Cavity...


Largest shell fragment was about 2/3rds the size of a 'Dime'.


Old Yolk material was merely grainy 'Marzipan'-like...all the original Albumen appeared to have drained out prior.


No fecal or urate materials were present in the debris or cavity the debris was ontained in.


She obliged the procedure very well...and actually seems a little relieved to me now...if possibly being a little exhausted by the ordeal, since she is sort of dozing now..


Fistula, now that it is clean, just looks like healthy tissue with an entrance in it.


Will try and get an image later.


I will be irrigating into the fistula in order to aid her in releasing and expelling any remaining debris.



She is a wiley, intelligent, and interesting old Hen...who tilts her head and looks at me while am talking to her, with a look of really struggleing to understand...and yet will definitely 'pull a fast one' to esape if I am not vigilant..!





Phil
l v

 

[pdpbison]

I am an idiot...


The Thread's title - I had meant to say "Fistula from Uterus?"


And I wrote Oviduct...


Lol...


Keep a better eye on me, will ya????


Lol-ing...


Phil
l v

 

[pdpbison]

http://people.eku.edu/ritchisong/Avian_FemaleReprodTract6.jpg


Image showing Avian reproductive structures -

 

[Pidgey]

Any idea what made the hole?

The entire thing is the oviduct, so you didn't do anything wrong by naming it that.

Pidgey

 

[pdpbison]

Hi Pidgey,



No opinion was reached as for what-made-the-hole.


Though the feeling was that her Body made it to expell the unwanted Egg debris.


A Pellet should have forced in some Feather debris and occasioned an infection...but there was no sign of either.


Quite curious...



Phil
l v

 

[Margarret]

Phil,

This is a most bizarre case. I'm sure the vet thought as much as well. It sounds as if once the debris is cleared away the opening will close. I'm sure glad you found her. It continues to amaze me how tough these birds are to survive what they do and how much more informed we become as we work with them. I was glad to read your post vet post. Will be eager to hear how she is doing in days to come.

Margaret

 

[Pidgey]

It's very amazing what kind of oviduct problems they can survive. The antibiotics sort of take over the job in a case like that and help the local tissues start winning the war. I'd have to look into the books to find whether there was any documentation about such a problem abscessing right out the side, though. I'd tend to guess that there had been some kind of puncture. So many mysteries, though, that we'll never know.

Pidgey

 

[TAWhatley]

The Thread's title - I had meant to say "Fistula from Uterus?"


And I wrote Oviduct...

Phil
l v

It's fixed ..

Terry

 

[pdpbison]

Phil,

This is a most bizarre case. I'm sure the vet thought as much as well. It sounds as if once the debris is cleared away the opening will close. I'm sure glad you found her. It continues to amaze me how tough these birds are to survive what they do and how much more informed we become as we work with them. I was glad to read your post vet post. Will be eager to hear how she is doing in days to come.

Margaret

Thanks Margaret...



She is a very likable Hen too...looks like 'Big Girl's sister.


I keep thinking she is no 'Spring Chicken' either...indeed, she does not look a day younger than 'Toto' does at 16...or, actually, looks older even (though probably is not...)


Of course there is no way to now how old a feral Pigeon is...other than I do know two of my feral flock ( though they are not always among them ) were adults in 1993 and 1994 when I aided them for injurys...and one was a Hen, who was still showing those 'wet' and tender looking 'mouth corners' recently they get from feeding 'Squeaker' aged pre-fledgling Babys...so...


Just how long a feral Pigeon Hen, when in good health, can remain reproductively viable, I have no idea.


Anyway, with this thought...was that I do feel this Hen is quite old...and I do no thave any idea how these Two Eggs could have been broken into Shell Fragents like they were...

Doc was using Haemostats or 'Clamps' as may be, to reach deeply in the hole and remove Shell Fragments...


These were at one time, Imust presume, whole, well formed Eggs, ready to be lain...


I just have no idea what could have happenned to her initially...for this result to have occured, however long after...


Phil
l v

 

[pdpbison]

It's very amazing what kind of oviduct problems they can survive. The antibiotics sort of take over the job in a case like that and help the local tissues start winning the war. I'd have to look into the books to find whether there was any documentation about such a problem abscessing right out the side, though. I'd tend to guess that there had been some kind of puncture. So many mysteries, though, that we'll never know.

Pidgey

Hi Pidgey,



I am very impressed she had managed for however long, on her own, with no meds...just as her wild self.



While no sign of infection appeared in the debris or inside the opening/cavity and so on, I do presume a systemic infection of course, and her loss of strength for being able to fly off yesterday would be in keeping.


By the look of her...she seems definitely 'relieved' for today's Vet foray...and for his getting all that stuff out of there, if a little exhausted from the procedure and general stresses of this phase.


She does not seem hungry so far today...so...I will respect that and see what tomorrow brings...or, maybe try some 'Lap Towell Cave with Seed Bowl' in a little while...



I will be doing an Irrigation later tonight...and I will see if I can get an image of the actual opening


Phil
l v

 

[pdpbison]

It's fixed ..

Terry

Thanks Terry..!



Phil
l v

 

[Pidgey]

They can get pretty tuckered out just from constantly leaking fluids.

Pidgey

 

[pdpbison]

Hi Pidgey,



She had not been leaking any fluids...but the cleaning-out procedure I know was somewhat stressful for her, and the 45 minute ride each way to boot...tireing for that.


All the materials we got out were barely damp...and 'clean' even though old looking.

Wish I'd brought my Camera...could have got some images of the stuff.

No odor...no infection.

Outside of the fistula, things were smelly, the soiled Albumen 'glued' Feathers and Poops having slid past them...but not any odor inside.




She ate a decent Teaspoon or better worth of seeds in a little burst of eating about a half hour ago...


And, I have her in 'Lap Towel Cave' at the moment...having just given her her three Meds.


She's an Escape Artist...if I had not said so yet.


Got away from me twice at the Vets while I was in the Exam Room waiting...


Every time now in holding her, or of having her in Lap-Towel mode...at some point she thinks ( and correctly, ) that I am momentarily lulled...and...then she bolts...she makes-her-break!! And she is fast too...



Lol...


So...that's good...she is wiley...and smart.


Literally, just as I wrote that...she did it! - SHOT out of Lap-Towel-Cave like a Rocket and went under the Table...I dove after her...


Lol...

All's well...got her rounded up and back into her Cage...


What a totally cool Pigeon-Hen...wow...


She definitely does look better Eye-wise, face-expression-wise, mannerism wise and so on, then she did yesterday...or did earlier today.


Looking interested now in ambiant others and their antics and social things...perched on her Rock.



Phil
l v

 

[pdpbison]

Well...


I held her in 'Floaty Bird' up to my eye level and talked with her for about five minutes, explaining what all has gone on from my first seeing her...and, yesterday's adventures at-the-Vets..and the 'flushing' procedure I was wishing to do...and how I needed her to co-operate with it and so on.


She looked so earnest, tilting her head a little this way and that, looking very intently, as if she was really struggling to understand...and indeed she was.


And, then, laying her on her back on an incline, as I sat, her on a towel against my Leg...she was splendid...let me trim away more feathers...even craneing her Head around to see what I was doing...an after a while of that, I did a new Butt-Bath holding her upright in the Sink...then the tepid 'sluicing-flushing' with the antiseptic solution...and she co-operated wonderfully through out.


Something which disturbed me though...doing the flushing-irrigation...into the fistula...the Atiseptic Liquid was coming out her Vent...and carried a few poops with it.


Yesterday at the Vets...the Solution when squeeze-bottled into the fistula...only exited the fistula itself...



So...


Oye...


Phil
l v

 

[Pidgey]

Well, the piping communicates, so that wouldn't surprise me. If the vaginal canal were clogged with dried stuff, then everything might have come out the fistula but that's not how it SHOULD exit. I'm not going to tell you that all's well, but I don't think I'd worry unnecessarily, either.

Pidgey