[Crank]

Hi,
Yesterday (around 30 hrs back) i found a pigeon stuck on my buildings roof fence, crows and eagle were attacking the pigeon, so my mom rushed on roof and freed the pigeon, but the pigeon had thread tied on its legs in a really rough manner (it could nearly cut its one finger off), and the crows had injured it too, so i thought to keep it for 3 to four days until its all healed up (also applied betadine on its injury). But just 10 mins back the pigeon lay a egg in the cage it is. Now i was thinking to take the egg away from the bird cause the bird is injured and wont be able too take care of it anyways, but should i take away the egg right now or wait for a day or two so that the pigeon heals and i can free him?

 

[John_D]

Keep her in for long enough for all wounds to heal completely, and until she is able to fly.

She may lay another egg if that was the first. Leave the egg a couple of days to see if she does lay, then remove the egg(s) OR alternatively, the eggs can be boiled and then returned to her to sit on.

 

[Jaye]

Thanks for saving your pal.

I agree with this. But more importantly...that Pigeon was being attacked by crows, so it now has a bacterial infection which MUST get medicated in the next 48 hours...or the Pigeon will die because her system will be overrun with infection. Unlike mammals, birds cannot just 'fight off' an injury.

Given the condition you describe, the Pigeon will not "heal so you can free her" without your help.

Betadine is a good topical...but it will not be enough. Do you...or any neighbors, friends, family.... have any antibiotics...either human or pet grade ? Penicillin, Cephalexin, Ceclor, Amoxycillin (Augmentin), Ampicillin, Trimeth Sulpha, etc ? You need oral antibiotic. My recollection is that in india, some antibiotics are easier to buy than in other places.

Also...have you been able to remove all of the string from the feet ? This will require you gently wrap the Pigeon in a towel, expose the feet, rinse them off with water, and try to untangle the string. Having a toothpick or X-acto blade helps. It is likely the string has cut into the flesh and the skin has grown around it...so it might begin to bleed when you untangle the string. Do as much a syou can w/o making it a bloody mess. If you can get some bad areas, then just stop and come back to it to get the rest/more, in a couple of days. Wash the wounds, apply pressure to stop the bleeding, and let the Pigeon be.

But the antibiotics are crucial...both for the feet and the circulatory system of the Pigeon.

Where are you located, which town/city ?

 

[Crank]

@John D cool, but while trying to clean her cage her egg got slightly squeezed, i had no idea that it was gona be like paper delicate... hope the bird dosnt notice.

@Jaye Damn thats bad, i dont have any antibiotic that she can drink, but i did put kiskin skin lotion on it, its a clobetasol propionate ofloxacin, miconazole nitrate and zinc sulphate lotion (its my dogs). And yea im sure i will be able to find some antibiotics for her from some pet store, but in morning cause it must be closed at this time. But i wont worry much about infection cause its been like 40 hrs now and she looked fine, and maybe the injury on her back was from fence and maybe no crow bite her (chances are low cause she was surrounded by crows).
And about the leg, yea, i removed all the strings, damn it was a human work cause it was properly tied between her fingers and leg. And im from Mumbai.

 

[Jaye]

Well...basically...the Pigeon needs antibiotic. Please try to get some. A bird will suppress symptoms because they are flock animals, and if they show symptoms they will get kicked out of the flock.
So they hide symptoms for as long as they can...then all of a sudden they appear quite ill...and by then...it is too late.

A Pigeon actually has 3 days to start antibiotic...not 2 days. I always say 2 so people will get oof their butts and realize how serious the situation is.

My point is...just because she 'looks all right' means nothing. The Pigeon shows injury...and it was attacked by crows AND has stringfoot injury. There is NO doubt there is an internal infection.

As I said before...an external topical cream or ointment or liquid will do nothing to stop an infection of the bloodstream, bone, or soft tissue.

Go to the store tom'w and get some oral antibiotic...some kind like I mentioned above.

I believe there might be another member on the Forum from Mumbai....I will go check.

Thanks for the quick reply !

 

[Crank]

I got Augmentin Syrup DUO (Amoxycillin and Potassium Calavulanate Oral Suspension IP), now they have no instruction on how much to feed, so how much should i give it to a pigeon? I gave him 4 drops for now.

 

[Jaye]

Hello. Excellent !!!!

OK, this I am reading off of my Avian Vet's prescription for Clavamox (which is Agmentin, same stuff), for a Feral adult: 125mg/ml, dosed .45cc twice daily.

This means an adult pigeon needs about 110-120 mg daily. Divided into 2 dosages, minimum 8 hours apart. So each dosage about 60 mg.

So, figure out what the suspension is that you have (it should be in mg/ml).

That is perfect antibiotic for this situation. You should give it for 7 days.

 

[Crank]

Suspension is 3.3g / 30ml, and i googled that a drop weight 0.06g. Im not good in maths, can you please let me know how much drop should i give her each day? I guess 12 - 16 drops?

 

[Jaye]

OK. So 3.3g/30ml is equal to about .1g/ml which is equal to 100mg/ml. So your suspension is 100mg/ml.

So, your Pigeon friend needs 100-120mg daily. So he needs a total of 1ml of the liquid daily, divided into 2 doses. So each dose should be about .5ml.

You have the dropper. Does the dropper say how many ml are in a full dropper ? (in ml or in cc....ml and cc are the same)

Is it a 1ml (1cc) dropper, a 5ml (5cc) dropper ?

If you don't know...and if it does not say so anywhere on the medicine...a 1ml dropper is about 7mm diameter by 60mm long. A 10ml dropper is about 15mm diameter by 50 or 60 mm long.

Let me know this and we can figure it out. In the meantime, I would be on the safe side and say 10 drops/day, divided into 2 doses. So 5 drops each dose.

But let's really figure this more exactly, as best we can...so let me know the answers to my questions above.

 

[jondove]

You could just drop 0.5 ml of that in a small graduated syringe then use the syringe. You can count the number of drops when you do that, so you can use the dropper directly next time.
But I would still use the syringe every time, to avoid any dosing mistakes.

 

[Crank]

@Jaye Its was a 0.5 ml dropper, at first she was not opening her mouth so i had to try real hard to keep it open, but during second dose she didnt resisted much, maybe the antibiotic was good in taste ^-^

@Jondove didnt had a syringe so used a Measuring Bottle Cap to figure out the dropper's capacity.

Other then that, she is looking healthy. Thanks allot everyone for your all help i really appreciate it

 

[Jaye]

There you go...so keep up with .5ml dose, twice a day...minimum 8 hours apart on the dosages.

You are going in the right direction ! Thank you for your kindness...your Pigeon friend would have died quite horribly had you not intervened...and with the string foot...she already was having a very painful life to begin with.

....her mate will be quite happy when he gets her back in much better shape !!!!

 

[Jay3]

Both these dosing instructions say 125 mg/kg.
kg equals 1000 grams. So a bird that weighs 1000 grams would get that much, divided into 2 doses every 12 hours. However, I really doubt that this bird weighs that much. To be that heavy, the bird would probably have to be a runt breed of pigeon, and they are huge.
We don't know what your bird weighs, but an adult feral can vary greatly in size, however are usually more like 250 to 350 grams. Would it be possible for you to get a weight on your bird?
If indeed, this is a 350 gram bird, than it should be getting about 23 mg every 12 hours.
AMOXYCILLIN AND CLAVULANIC ACID (Synulox, Clavamox)

Dose - up to 50 mgs per kilo BID if injection or up to 125mgs per kilo (divided) TID (three times daily) orally- up to 3 weeks. Dose and dosing interval determined by infection site, severity and organism involved.
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f108/drug-chart-drawn-up-by-nooti-15947.html
_________________________________________________________________________

http://www.blueridgewildlife.org/Articles/Basic Stabilization of Wildlife.pdf

Antibiotic Dosages for Birds
Clavamox 125 mg/kg PO q 12 hours
Amoxi 100 mg/kg PO q 8 hours
Trimethoprim/Sulfamethoxazole 10-50 mg/kg PO q 24 hours
Baytril 10-20 mg/kg PO, SC, IM q12-24 hours (dilute if giving SQ or IM)

 

[Jaye]

Both these dosing instructions say 125 mg/kg.

? ~ I don't quite understand what you are referring to (?)

....neither dosing instruction says anything about mg/kg. You have misread my posts.

If you look again, I am stating that the suspension I have always been prescribed is 125mg/ml Clavamox or Augmentin.

I will just repeat, I am reading off of a label of a prescription from my Avian vet, who has treated about 50 rescued Ferals I have brought in.
The dosing I suggested is based upon a professional veterinary prescription of some very accomplished Avian vets. This dosage was prescribed for an adult Feral. It is an appropriate Augmentin/Clavamox dosage.

(I am sure there are different formularies out there, and had someone else replied before me they perhaps would have given a slightly different dosage....but I can only go by my experience...and my docs have never failed their patients yet. I always base my dosage quotes from meds which have been professionally prescribed, particularly for Ferals).

Crank, the .5ml twice a day will do your Pigeon well. I suppose if you want, you can roll it back to .4ml twice a day. But I can't see any reason to push it more than that.
Keep it up for 7 full days, provide plenty of food and water....and as long as she is eating well, is alert and active, and pooping regularly she should be OK to release.

IF, for some reason...she shows signs of lethargy, sleepiness often, or fluffed up feathers often...OR she doesn't seem to be eating...THEN there may be something else going on which requires more attention.

 

[Jaye]

BTW, Crank...can we get a picture of your new friend ???

(go to "go advanced" button, click it, then on the next page click "attachments" button and upload the pic to this thread).

 

[Jay3]

? ~ I don't quite understand what you are referring to (?)

....neither dosing instruction says anything about mg/kg. You have misread my posts.

If you look again, I am stating that the suspension I have always been prescribed is 125mg/ml Clavamox or Augmentin.

I will just repeat, I am reading off of a label of a prescription from my Avian vet, who has treated about 50 rescued Ferals I have brought in.
The dosing I suggested is based upon a professional veterinary prescription of some very accomplished Avian vets. This dosage was prescribed for an adult Feral. It is an appropriate Augmentin/Clavamox dosage.

(I am sure there are different formularies out there, and had someone else replied before me they perhaps would have given a slightly different dosage....but I can only go by my experience...and my docs have never failed their patients yet. I always base my dosage quotes from meds which have been professionally prescribed, particularly for Ferals).

Crank, the .5ml twice a day will do your Pigeon well. I suppose if you want, up it to .6ml twice a day. But I can't see any reason to push it more than that.
Keep it up for 7 full days, provide plenty of food and water....and as long as she is eating well, is alert and active, and pooping regularly she should be OK to release.

IF, for some reason...she shows signs of lethargy, sleepiness often, or fluffed up feathers often...OR she doesn't seem to be eating...THEN there may be something else going on which requires more attention.

mg/kg is not the issue. What I'm concerned about is the bird getting a weight appropriate dose.
The info I provided were from this site, and from a wildlife sites formulary, who have prescribed for thousands of birds. Antibiotics should be dosed based on the weight of the bird. Do you happen to know the weight of the bird in question? Just trying to share what I felt to be important information.

 

[Jaye]

I agree w/ you completely...weight of the bird is a nice bit of info to have, if accurate.
But, if not available...and in a situation where you better darn well get some meds into that Pigeon pronto...then you just aim for a middle average (you don't assume a Lilliputian weakling, nor do you assume an Olympic champion beefcake ), and that usually works out alright....no, better than alright.
As most people here would agree, and as is mentioned quite often...there is a bit of wiggle room (i.e. flexibility while avoiding any danger) when dealing with most antibiotic doses.

Regarding mg/kg...I agree, it isn't the issue nor the subject, really. I was just clarifying that I had never mentioned that relationship in my previous replies...nor have I ever had my vets make mention of it. I just take the prescription bottle and follow the directions...and it works really well...

You have your sources which certainly seem trustworthy enough for you, and I respect that...and I have my sources which I know firsthand and repeatedly have proven to be rock-solid as well.
I am neither questioning your sources, nor am I saying you are questioning mine. The example you gave via your referenced source is coming up with dosages which don't agree with my Avian Vets' history of prescribing this med. Not saying that to insist anything, one way or the other....just that the numbers don't jibe and I can only suggest what my Vets have proven to be effective and safe.
As I noted above, it isn't unusual to have differences in how one member would suggest dosing vs. another....

 

[Crank]

She must be under 300 grams, and if ya both wana continue the discussion then it was Augmentin DUO Syrup by GlaxoSmithKline. The company sucks on putting info about its meds online, cause if you google then you will only find info about Augmentin DUO 400 suspension.

P.S. She completely broke her egg herself, maybe she is young like less then 6 months old. But anyways i replaced the egg with a tennis ball.

 

[pigeon-lover0]

Hi,

How big is the tennis ball. You could go online/catalog and you can buy pigeon sized fake eggs. The reason I'm saying this is because when she is focused on the egg(s) she might not have as much stress.

 

[Jay3]

A tennis ball won't work. Not even a golf ball is anywhere near pigeon egg size. At this point, I would just remove the egg and leave it at that. Not like she will be in a nesting mood at this point.