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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Am just starting out with this garlic/ACV business, getting a solid routine going, and have some questions about both. Hopefully somebody can help me out :):)

- GARLIC
I put a clove to a litre of water. Its a punctured or sliced clove.
Sometimes I give the pigeons the water. Sometimes I give them the actual garlic pieces. About 6mm by 2mm slivers.
How many pieces can a pigeon handle without it upsetting his digestive system?

Can the garlic be simply just diced and given in the seed normally? Without it being immersed in water first?

How many days exactly should garlic be used for consecutively?

Should the dosage be increased if its used for treatment rather than preventative means?

- ACV
How many days a week consecutively should ACV be given?
Can it be used alongside the garlic or its best to alternate every second week?

- BOTH THINGS
Can they be given as 'complementary' tonics alongside normal antibiotics? At the same time.

Does anyone have a timetable for all these natural supplements they use (not just garlic and acv)? :)

Big thankyou
 

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I would never give all of them in the same time.

One day ACV, one day garlic ( in the water). I give once a week.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Hi Dima, thanks for that :) howcome wouldnt you mix them? By mixing do you mean inclusive of the antibiotic from vet? Also why do you only use the garlic in water? Just wanting to know the side effects of these supplements... Thanks :)
 

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As explained on another thread, there is no point giving these supplements at the same time as antibiotics, and it should not, repeat NOT, be done.

What exactly are you expecting from these extras anyway?

ACV can help to make the gut inhospitable to those bacteria which prefer a more alkaline environment, by increasing acidity. Garlic, really woudn't know. We don't use it, though there is allium in probiotics. No doubt plenty of claims are made for garlic as almost a cure-all, just as there are for other things (like Goji berries, Colloidal Silver, diatomaceous earth, etc., etc.). Always remember though, these things are just supplemental, and don't work wonders :)
 

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Garlic , just as used by humans, increases the capability of immune system to fight bacteria and viruses.

Why do you give antibiotics in the water and what kind antibiotics? If there is a sick pigeon then it should be treated individually. Some antibiotics should not be combined with other meds or even grit ( Calcium).
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
As explained on another thread, there is no point giving these supplements at the same time as antibiotics, and it should not, repeat NOT, be done.

What exactly are you expecting from these extras anyway?

ACV can help to make the gut inhospitable to those bacteria which prefer a more alkaline environment, by increasing acidity. Garlic, really woudn't know. We don't use it, though there is allium in probiotics. No doubt plenty of claims are made for garlic as almost a cure-all, just as there are for other things (like Goji berries, Colloidal Silver, diatomaceous earth, etc., etc.). Always remember though, these things are just supplemental, and don't work wonders :)
Hi John D, yep, I know, I saw your reply to that thread about never mixing, and thnkyou for sticking by my continuous asking of stuff. :)
The thing is my Pipi (you've probably seen the whole story, the yo-yo'ing of his health since June, posted on here a few hundred times over) went downhill really fast on Saturday.

His respiratory noises (the grunt, kazoo type noises we've been trying to cure since August) got more distinct and his breathing became awful. Heavy drop on exhale, kind of with a body jerk to the left. Open beaked. He was also subdued, tail doing a double bob, right leg began causing trouble, like it was weak, red eyes...we were originally given (last week) Veterinary advice to give Doxycycline for 21 days + Metronidazole tabs twice daily for 3 days, for what the vet believed was chlamydia, wet canker cause of the noises. Took $236 of me and still don't know black and white whats going on.
A dropping culture came back positive for ecoli. Streptococcus didn't show up in the culture but showed up in initial poop test. I don't know what this all means, I haven't been able to get a detailed explanation from the busy vet yet.

Anyways, doxycycline seemed to help nothing. We switched to sulfa avs Sunday night. And started on the garlic. Over the course of the last 24 hours, he has had 5 garlic pieces. The ones that were drifting in the litre of water (one clove to litre). Measuring about 6mm by 2mm.

I have to say sincerely, the improvement is evident.

Today I'm giving a rest with the garlic, but keeping on with the sulfa avs.

Mixing the 2 doesn't seem to bother them. I'm also giving the female the garlic in case shes a carrier.

What do you think of all this?

We were desperate to do all we could on Saturday, thinking it could be Streptococcus turning to Septicaemia.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Garlic , just as used by humans, increases the capability of immune system to fight bacteria and viruses.

Why do you give antibiotics in the water and what kind antibiotics? If there is a sick pigeon then it should be treated individually. Some antibiotics should not be combined with other meds or even grit ( Calcium).
Hi Dima, I'm using Sulfa AVS by Dr Colin WAlker. Yeah, I know about the grits and calcium in regards to meds like Doxycycline :):)
 

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The vet should not have given to you to give meds in the water. He may not drink the right amount of water therefore he will not intake the dosage of Sulfa needed for his weight.

I don't think Garlic will help him right now..garlic irritates the stomach or crop. He needs Nystation for sure.

I hope he recovers completely.
 

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I have combined the garlic and ACV for many years in fact I also add Braggs aminos to the mix. This is added to 1 gallon of distilled water, I use garlic juice 2tsp, ACV 1tbsp, Braggs Aminos 1tbsp. If you use freash garlic be sure to crush the clove . I give my mix for 2 days and always on the third day give the birds Probiotics using distilled water, this is done to replace friendly bacteria that may have been lost when using ACV,and Garlic. GEORGE;)
 

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Chlamydia causes ornithosis in pigeons. Its usually a chronic disease which can be easily transmitted from birds to humans and humans to birds. In adult birds it often occurs chronically and latent shedding of pathogens makes it all the way more dangerous as humans and young birds are prone to infection. Pathogens can be demonstrated by a sink dab from cloaca or by serological identification of specific antibodies. Adult birds usually show no or less symptoms.
Chlortetracycline+ is drug of choice to treat this, given that it shouuld be administered for 30days continously.

Doxycycline is successor and effective drug but it is given for long periods. I don't think garlic can help in this as it is used to build immunity in healthy pigeons. Here some people chop up garlic cloves and give small piece of it per pigeon down the throat twice weekly.
What you think to be effect of garlic may be effect of doxy or chronic cycle.
 

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Too much garlic isn't good for them either, so wouldn't give it in pieces. Just put it in the water once a week if you want to use it.
And ACV doesn't hurt friendly bacteria. It's what they like. It's the bad bacteria that don't like acidity.

george, you are using the distilled water when giving probiotics, but did you know that if you give chlorinated water the next day, it begins killing off the good bacteria again?
 

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My own view is that I would just not give any of these supplements to birds who are sick, and being treated for illness, or suspected of being sick. I believe that whatever benefits they may or may not provide, they are intended for healthy birds to aid in boosting their immune systems against possible future problems. They are not medicines, or substitutes for medicines.

Another point is that if one is having samples tested for bacterial or other infection, then the samples really need to be taken before treatment with any meds begins, otherwise the results are likely to be inaccurate. At least, if there is a bacterial problem, then samples should be taken before antibacterials are started, though non-bacterial problems would still show up.

Doxycycline is reputed to be more effective than Baytril against E.coli infection (though the mere presence of E.coli bacteria does not necessarily indicate that the bird has Colibaccilosis, as it is quite normally found in birds, animals and humans).

Baytril is the suggested antibacterial for Chlamydiosis, given for as long as 40 days. Edit: from what Brocky says, Chlortetracycline is also effective.

However, the important thing is which antibacterials a culture of bacterial samples is sensitive to.
 

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Alicjanpip, is your bird on eggs again?? (I think). You can't let them breed with all this going on! Replace the eggs with dummies... You shouldnt let them breed until they're fine.

And pls don't switch medications as chlamydia attack blood cells parasitically. Maintaining blood levels is needed to fight chlamydia.
Take care of yourself also
 

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One clove of garlic crushed in a garlic press is all you need. Occassionally I mix one crushed cloveof garlic with one tablespoon of ACV. I’ve been using garlic this way for thirty-five years. Although garlic contains allicin which is an immune system stimulant, I believe most fanciers use it as a preventive or a supplement not as a treatment or a cure. Whole cloves of garlic should not be placed in the water as they can become covered with a film that will foul the water. One tablespoon of ACV per gallon of water will not harm the pigeons. I use it two to three times a week. Some fanciers use it four to five times a week. Although Bragg’s ACV is more nutritious (because it contains the "mother"), I use just regular generic ACV, as my main interest is in acidifying the gut. The bad bacteria will not do well in an acidic environment. Back to garlic for a moment. The thought process for many people concludes that if one clove is good, then three cloves would be better. I don't believe this to be true. In the case of garlic a little goes a long way.
 

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AlicjanPip said:
A dropping culture came back positive for ecoli.
If I'm not mistaken you were also taking about E.coli few weeks ago.Sometimes E.coli need to be dealt with more specific drugs like aureomycin or oxytetracycline or neomycin sulphate (that also comes combined with doxycycline to treat almost all respiratory and bacterial problems).
Sorry,but Is your vet an experienced avian one???
 

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Too much garlic isn't good for them either, so wouldn't give it in pieces. Just put it in the water once a week if you want to use it.
And ACV doesn't hurt friendly bacteria. It's what they like. It's the bad bacteria that don't like acidity.

george, you are using the distilled water when giving probiotics, but did you know that if you give chlorinated water the next day, it begins killing off the good bacteria again?
interesting you say that jay....i daily give by homers crushed garlic in their Purina racing pigeon food, twice a day i use the dry crushed garlic container sprinkle top, three shakes in each food bowl. my homers are really healthy, of course, i keep their place really clean....they love the garlic, their droppings are white tops/brownish color....if their droppings get a greenish color, i know they need more garlic. i also give them grit the same way ...i don't measure the food, just a small handful in each bowl...and i add sunflower seeds, just a small pinch...they love the sunflower seeds.

i've been feeding this way for over a year....never had any parasites, one had a respiratory problem last january, the vet tested for parasites, was surprised to find none...he said usually all birds have some kind of parasite, it's the garlic keeping them parasite free...
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
If I'm not mistaken you were also taking about E.coli few weeks ago.Sometimes E.coli need to be dealt with more specific drugs like aureomycin or oxytetracycline or neomycin sulphate (that also comes combined with doxycycline to treat almost all respiratory and bacterial problems).
Sorry,but Is your vet an experienced avian one???
Hi Brocky Bieber, I'm sorry I've been slow in replying, days been so busy lately. Thanks for your thoughts. Yeah, Ecoli was found following a dropping culture. Streptococcus was also found in some initial dropping test, but didn't turn up in the culture later. And after 3 days of keeping the dropping in a sealed jar, it grew white hairy mold. My female bird's dropping didn't grow mold.

We are treating him and the female with Sulfa AVS still.
Plus garlic pieces 3x every second day.

Its all very hard right now because they're nesting, and during the day, its his turn on the darn eggs. So he doesn't seem to drink a whole lot.
He is doing the yo-yo thing again. Eg. Before yesterday, he was looking pretty off. Breathing heavy, bob, slight pop in beak, Following the garlic, he perked up, starting scratching so bad, plucking all theseneedle feathers, then calmed down. Droppings became lighter, less forest green. Yesterday things were looking great, sleek feathers, no bob, breathing A-OK, appetite. Today, around midday, we went back to breathing heavy, beak-popping, 9 breaths per minute. So I garlic'ed him again, and we've just gone through the needle plucking process all over. Seems better now.

Its insanity.
I don't know what's going on. How can his breathing deteriorate and get better so quick?

The vet? No offence to the vets on here, but I swear, there has been zero avian vets who have ever helped. Our chooks all died following vets visits, and the 3 (not 1 but 3 would you believe) vet have been in contact with with Pip's story, have been driving me nuts. I have 3 different opinions - the only thing they agree on is ecoli - so treatments are all over the place. A real diagnosis is still up in the air. And my wallet, well, you know how the wallet is when you go see a vet times a million times.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Alicjanpip, is your bird on eggs again?? (I think). You can't let them breed with all this going on! Replace the eggs with dummies... You shouldnt let them breed until they're fine.

And pls don't switch medications as chlamydia attack blood cells parasitically. Maintaining blood levels is needed to fight chlamydia.
Take care of yourself also
Hi again Brocky :)
Yeah they are nesting again, as of about 5 days. They're fake eggs but somehow they think they're as real as real can be. He is on high alert, protective overdrive. He goes pacing, hyperventilating, trying to get the nest looking just right on a daily basis. And then she joins in. And then when he sits, he sits like he's glued on the there with superglue. All day, not eating or drinking. We were throwing the eggs out nonstop for past couple of months, all she does is lay, and they havent even mated, but she she keeps on laying. We noticed she was laying thinner and thinner eggs, looking light, and bad, so we thought we'd just give her a rest, let them have their eggs once through.

Can cockroaches cause Salmonella, Streptococcus????
Random question, but I just read this and we did find a cockroach running through their cage 3 nights ago. We clean three times a day now. Every dropping is covered up, as we're paranoid its a contaminated dropping. We've lost our minds.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
interesting you say that jay....i daily give by homers crushed garlic in their Purina racing pigeon food, twice a day i use the dry crushed garlic container sprinkle top, three shakes in each food bowl. my homers are really healthy, of course, i keep their place really clean....they love the garlic, their droppings are white tops/brownish color....if their droppings get a greenish color, i know they need more garlic. i also give them grit the same way ...i don't measure the food, just a small handful in each bowl...and i add sunflower seeds, just a small pinch...they love the sunflower seeds.

i've been feeding this way for over a year....never had any parasites, one had a respiratory problem last january, the vet tested for parasites, was surprised to find none...he said usually all birds have some kind of parasite, it's the garlic keeping them parasite free...
Hi Leelu, so twice daily dried, crushed garlic??? Store bought or self made? Do you ever use fresh cloves pieces? :) I will have to get on this routine.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
One clove of garlic crushed in a garlic press is all you need. Occassionally I mix one crushed cloveof garlic with one tablespoon of ACV. I’ve been using garlic this way for thirty-five years. Although garlic contains allicin which is an immune system stimulant, I believe most fanciers use it as a preventive or a supplement not as a treatment or a cure. Whole cloves of garlic should not be placed in the water as they can become covered with a film that will foul the water. One tablespoon of ACV per gallon of water will not harm the pigeons. I use it two to three times a week. Some fanciers use it four to five times a week. Although Bragg’s ACV is more nutritious (because it contains the "mother"), I use just regular generic ACV, as my main interest is in acidifying the gut. The bad bacteria will not do well in an acidic environment. Back to garlic for a moment. The thought process for many people concludes that if one clove is good, then three cloves would be better. I don't believe this to be true. In the case of garlic a little goes a long way.
Hello Rod, thankyou heaps for that :) Am relieved to hear garlic can be used with ACV. Yeah, I know. I'm worried about the garlic, whats too much or too little, one clove thats it. Do you ever give them actual garlic clove nibble pieces? I do have the Braggs ACV actually, yay I got one thing right at least :)
 
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