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Discussion Starter #1
Hello, I need some help. I have been slowly losing pigeons over past few months, but lately it has been worse. I had wormed prior with Safeguard liquid and moved them to pens that use to house my ornamental pheasants(they moved to bigger pen).No change so i dosed with SG liquid added to water and mixed in feed for 5 days, as Im in Florida and parasites can be an issue. When that didn't seem to be helping i floated liquid Ivomec in drinking water for 2 days. no change. I noticed recently with loss of weight, a few days before death they will get liquid in their mouth and green stains around vent. I thought perhaps fungal so dosed with 2 days Metrotrondizole in water. Anyone have a clue what this is.
 

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Discussion Starter #2
I'm in Florida USA
Symptoms are Loss of weight , green stain around vent, liquid from mouth, 3 different pens,
 

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Have you hand fed the birds to keep them from starving? Weight loss can also be a symptom of starvation. Too many meds can cause crop status and get their PH off.

That could be part of the reason why they died, coupled with the fact that you are medicating them without a diagnosis. This just complicates things and brings them downhill further.

You really need to get this diagnosed at this time.

You also need to hand feed your birds when they stop eating or not eating enough.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Their are at least 20 birds in 2 pens, 10 in another. They don't show signs of being I'll until it's too late. I've tried to hand feed but their is fluid in the mouth. If vet was possible, I wouldn't be asking here, I would have taken them in for necropsy. ...but unfortunately it's not an option at this time.
 

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Can you get injectable antibiotic? Is the only thing that can stop advanced salmonellosis or adenocoli. Use Lincospectin if possible (no more than three days treatment, one or two days can be enough in most cases), if not, injectable Baytril.

When I've read of aglutinated vents I thought at coccidiosis or canker, which usually are the diseases associated with this, but the fact that symptoms appear when is to late makes me think is salmo or adenocoli. Have you noticed the aspect of droppings some days before death? Was green or perhaps reddish? This usually are signs of salmonella or worms (reddish droppings) that weakens the body and make salmonella proliferate.
 

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If my husband had not lost his job, my birds would have been to the vet..even though it is hard to find one to even do a fecal on one.....Unfortunately the situation at this moment needs me to try to figure this out with the meds I keep on hand. I have treated pens with Metronidazole. ...but pills dissolved in their drinking water for last 2 days. I know chickens but never had issue with pigeons getting sick until now.
Thank you for your advice.
 

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If my husband had not lost his job, my birds would have been to the vet..even though it is hard to find one to even do a fecal on one.....Unfortunately the situation at this moment needs me to try to figure this out with the meds I keep on hand. I have treated pens with Metronidazole. ...but pills dissolved in their drinking water for last 2 days. I know chickens but never had issue with pigeons getting sick until now.
Thank you for your advice.
I've edited the message as when I wrote it first time, I've not had read your second message.

Metronidazole must be given at least five days and pills dissolved in water means little to not at all efficiency, as the drug is not water soluble, except when processed to be used as soluble powder to be put in water. so when you disolved the pills, they broke in small, invisible (for you) particles that settled on the bottom of the water recipices and the birds didn't get the medicine.

Anyway, as I said in my previous message, canker is signalised by various symtoms days and weeks before death. The fact that symptoms appear so late is indicative for salmonellosis or adenocoli, which both kill very fast (even 24 hours from first symptom) if not medicated with injectable antibiotics.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I have Baytril, LA200, Tylan 50.... Injectables.
Is their a pigeon dosing chart?
I will look for different poo...been hard to see as they are on a natural sand floor. It's like their crop or mouth fills with clear greenish tint fluid. When I pick them up to see what's wrong...it spills out the mouth....One choked and died when I picked it up. I did not see canker plaques in mouth....or any abnormalities in mouth... they just suddenly act droopy, I motive the vent stain when I pick them up, and the fluid out mouth but crop is empty.
 

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I have Baytril, LA200, Tylan 50.... Injectables.
Is their a pigeon dosing chart?
As I usually don't use Baytril, I can't help you, but on bottle must be described how much drug to be given per kilogram.

It's like their crop or mouth fills with clear greenish tint fluid.
That's typical for adenocoli.

When I pick them up to see what's wrong...it spills out the mouth....One choked and died when I picked it up.
Try to not press their crop when handling them, puting a hand under their feet and one on their back.

I did not see canker plaques in mouth....or any abnormalities in mouth...
Canker can be located in mouth as dry canker, or in the bowel, as wet canker. Wet canker is detected by yellow, discolored or green (feces) - yellow (urates) & aquaeous and somehow chalky droppings. There are some other more seldom met types of canker as well.

they just suddenly act droopy, I motive the vent stain when I pick them up, and the fluid out mouth but crop is empty.
Sudden death is also typical for adenocoli. Read more here:
http://www.pigeonvetcenter.com/en/diseases/464-adeno-coli-syndrome
 

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Your birds could have caker, but as was already mentioned, pills don't work in water. They do have powder that dissolves in water, but medicating with tablet by mouth, Metronidazole 50 mg once daily would be better. That way you know that the bird is getting all the med. If you put it in the water, then you don't know how much they are getting.
Are they off their feed, but drinking a lot. I think their illness just wasn't noticed till it was more advanced. They do try to act as though they are healthy till they are just too sick to do that.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Thank you, I had read a little on it but was confused as it says mostly affects young birds...and many of mine affected are older birds..... hummm.... I'll keep reading and praying and try some Baytril
 

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It can affect any pigeon. It doesn't always show in the mouth either. Any kind of stress can bring it on. Even change of seasons. I would medicate with the Metro again for 7 days, dosing each bird individually. If you want to cover more bases, then try the Baytril, for 10 days. But I would definitely medicate with the Metro. Canker is one of the most common illnesses to inflict pigeons. If you used pills in the drinking water, then you haven't really medicated them yet.
 

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Thank you, I had read a little on it but was confused as it says mostly affects young birds...and many of mine affected are older birds..... hummm.... I'll keep reading and praying and try some Baytril
It was my mistake to say adeno-coli instead of adenovirus.


There are two types of disease caused by adenovirus, type I and type II. Type I is more frequrent and considered classic and most often adenovirus acts in association with e. coli. Type I affects only young pigeons and mostly in spring. Type II affects all ages and throughout the entire year.



A quote from a scientific paper:
In contrast to type I adenovirosis, type II disease occurs throughout the year (Figure 2) and affects pigeons of all ages.
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/03079459808419348 - Epidemiology chapter





A quote from the specialist that described type II for the first time:

I was the first to describe this dramatic disease, not knowing than that it was a different type of the classical Adenovirus.
I was confronted with many lofts in South West of Holland with following very typical symptoms normal healthy looking pigeons mostly old birds would all of a sudden eat less. Only drink a little water. Start trying to vomit and produce yellow, not slime, only yellow plaques without dropping structure. The birds die mostly the next day heavily breathing as if they have a bad long disease.

However, they die of septicaemie due to a massive liver infection and destruction of the liver. I saw thousands of such cases and sent in pigeons to the best clinic in the world for laboratory research in pigeons: the university of Gent in Belgium. They found out, after 1 ½ year, that this was a variant of the classical Adenovirus and called it type II.

http://www.belgicadeweerd.nl/news/adenocoli_infections.html







Another bacteria that can cause sudden death (beside e. coli and salmonella) is streptococcus. Streptococcus can't be treated with Baytril, ampicillin is the best choise of medicine:
http://www.auspigeonco.com.au/Articles/stretopigeon.html
 

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Sudden death is also typical for adenocoli. Read more here:
http://www.pigeonvetcenter.com/en/diseases/464-adeno-coli-syndrome



Andrei, what appears to be sudden death is often just an illness that went unnoticed for a bit, and all of a sudden he shows signs of sickness and dies. Many times the symptoms are just not noticed or picked up on.
You cannot be sure what is causing these birds deaths. So you look at the symptoms, and go with the more common ailments first. Using a wide spectrum antibiotic along with the Metro is a good idea as it covers more bases.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I would like to dose by mouth, sticking a pill piece in 50 birds won't be easy. I do have Nystain....but don't know if it will work on what you are talking about. I'm gonna try tonight to catch and medicate directly while they sleep....I'll have to wait till next week to try to send one for necropsy as lab is not open to receive on weekends. :(
 

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Andrei, what appears to be sudden death is often just an illness that went unnoticed for a bit, and all of a sudden he shows signs of sickness and dies. Many times the symptoms are just not noticed or picked up on.
You cannot be sure what is causing these birds deaths. So you look at the symptoms, and go with the more common ailments first.
I don't think is specific for canker to develop without apparent symptoms for too long time. Maybe exceptionally, yes, but not as a rule to many birds during the same epidemy.

Using a wide spectrum antibiotic along with the Metro is a good idea as it covers more bases.
The sudden death the pigeons manifest in this case is typical for sepsis, bacteria entering blood system. In such cases, oral antibiotics are useless, only injectable one can make a difference.

And if streptococus is the cause, Baytril, even injectable is useless, ampicillin is the efficient drug against this bacteria:
http://www.pigeonvetcenter.com/en/diseases/881-streptococcosis (this is another useful article about streptococcus)


I would like to dose by mouth, sticking a pill piece in 50 birds won't be easy. I do have Nystain....but don't know if it will work on what you are talking about. I'm gonna try tonight to catch and medicate directly while they sleep....I'll have to wait till next week to try to send one for necropsy as lab is not open to receive on weekends. :(
If you limit yourself to metronidazole, you won't solve the problem. Canker may be associated in some pigeons, but the main disease is bacterial. Canker takes some time (1 to several weeks) to kill a bird and during this time symptoms are obvious. Sudden death, in respect of infectious diseases, is caused by the bacteria passing from digestive system or skin into blood system, repliating there and leading to massive infection.

And Nystatin is necessary for antibiotic treatment, not for metronidazole. If you give antibiotics, give Nystatin in the same time, half a tablet (a tablet is 500,000 units, so you give 250,000 units), crushed, mixed with 1-2 ml of water and given with a syringe deep in the throat, caring for the liquid to not enter the respiratory vent on the tongue.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
I went out and threw kibble down to see if I could see them actually eat something vs the mash where I can't tell if they are injesting it all, and almost all pigeons came down and actually swallowed the kibble (aka waterfowl bits).....so they are eating....it's just not going anywhere.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
I have a farm and have tube fed chickens to Llamas..... and I keep a lot of meds on hand....but my pigeons I've had for years with no issues.... except an occasional squab I've had to feed due to neglectful mom or injury.... so I don't know much about their treatments for illness.
 

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I went out and threw kibble down to see if I could see them actually eat something vs the mash where I can't tell if they are injesting it all, and almost all pigeons came down and actually swallowed the kibble (aka waterfowl bits).....so they are eating....it's just not going anywhere.
 
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