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Discussion Starter #1
This afternoon I noticed my beloved Bootsy looking like she was on the way out. She is a two year old hen. The bottom of her eye lids appear a little swollen. She is trembling, weak and not wanting to move. She does not want to eat or drink either. After I startled her she looked as if she could die right then. She shook sort of like a bird choking or having a seizure. She is on a heat
pad now with spotlights shining directly down on her. Her husband Midnight is
in a separate cage beside her in the iso ward. I wonder what it could be? I have
another hen with Paratyphoid that is in remission but the two were widely separated and Bootsy seems like she has something else. I gave Bootsy a 75 mg
Metridazole pill. I did not see any canker in her throat. Her mouth smelled ok.
I did see a tiny chalk white smear of a dropping. Any ideas?
 

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Michael, I would also start her on Baytril right away and ask questions later. Keep her well hydrated for now.

Karyn
 

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Hi superflyer,



Check to see if her Crop has anything in it...

She may be, or very likely is dehydrated at this point also...so, if her Crop is empty, consider to administer Electrolytes and or to encourage her to drink a rehydration solution ( serve 'tepid' ) if possible.


If her Crop is empty, she may not have been eating for a few days...and, if all you see for Urates are a very few small white dabs, just accept she is seriously dehydrated and should have rehydration porotocols starting now.


If her Crop has solid or liquid contents, yet, very little is seen for poops and Urates, she may have Crop Stasis or some issue preventing the Crop contents from passing, in which case, oral meds will not pass either, and or will be diluted among the already non-passing contents...so...

Let us know what the Crop seems like...



Phil
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Discussion Starter #5
I will check Booties crop again it seemed empty but I will check more thoroughly. I have the Baytril ready, I may go back tonight and give Bootsy some. She seemed slightly better. The water dish was a little less. I'm not sure if she drank or spilled some. Systemic illnesses are hard to diagnose. I recently read the post about the 17 year old pigeon that died. That sounded to me exactly like my Jeroni's systemic paratyphoid that started out in her intestines before moving to her leg and her lungs.
It could be that Bootsy has the paratyphoid... She looked like a canker bird though.
 

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Well, I would start her on the Baytril as well, as with you mentioning swollen eye lids, I think it would be prudent to make sure she is covered for as broad a range as possible right now.

Karyn
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Thanks Karen I'll go back over and give Bootsy some Baytril. I'll sleep in the next room and keep an ear to her. I prepared some Baytril for Jeroni before I left but her husband Lucky Boy gave me three quick wing slaps when I tried to give it to her. I'm looking forward to the day when I can understand all the different grunts and sounds pigeons make. I'm sure they understand what each other is saying. I took Lucky's wing slaps as an indication that Jeroni didn't want the Baytril.
 

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'Water dish is a little less' is as far cry form evaluating her level of dehydrastion even impirically by noting the Urate quanitity for the last half day or whatever, which you should do! - adequately and or implimenting intentional electrolyes and getting her re-hydrated, without which, the Meds are going to stall and or make for an OD, or in various ways make problems of their own.


What is there for fecal matter far as to-day's poops?

Bile? True fecal matter? Or?


Can you post some images?


Best wishes!
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Thanks for all the tips, your correct detailed analysis is needed. I think it best not to force feed or water a bird that has the ability to eat and drink but chooses not to do so. Often we human do not eat or drink while ill. Data is still coming in this bird was noticed to be ill at 5pm today it is now 3 am.
 

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Hi superflyer,



Well, I know I never said anything about force feeding or force watering, whatever those would be.


But I might now.


If she is clinically dehydrated, and you do not encourage her to drink, and or do not supply palatable electrolyte-solution for her to be drinking, if you adminster meds, it will not be very good.


Their system needs to be adequately hydrated prior to administering the oral or injected medicines/antibiotics...and, this can easily take fourteen or eighteen hours ( actually, it takes longer, but that length of time, if done right, is close enough, ) of appropriate composition ( not plain Water, for one thing ) Liquid intake to acheive.


If it was me, I would have been on that aspect at the get go, and by now, she's be close-enough for the Meds to be given.


If you have not done this, then you may very well be fourteen or eighteen hours away from when it would be safe to adminster the Meds.


Waiting for her to drink plain water, enough to rehydrate, when she already shows a lack of interest in drinking on her own, is not an appropriate regimen or method at this time.


If what you originally said was true, that all there was for 'poops' for the day, was a few tiny dots of 'white'...then, she is seriously and dangerousaly dehydrated and will not be able to process or assimilate the meds which you were intending to give...and nothing is going to be going through her digestive system at anything near a usual pace to even be assimilated...nor will her Kidneys be able to function.


Observation...evaluation...rehydration protocols when needed...then Meds.


Sometimes they stop drinking when ill and then if they do not catch up with encouragement, one simply does have to 'Tube' into their Crop, small amounts of tepid rehydration solutions, and to do it often enough, for them to be adequately hydrated over fourteen hours or so...or untill one is seeing unambiguous urates-enough, and old stalled thin poops comeing through, signalling their Bloos, and, Kidneys and Digestive system now have enough hydration from a global condition, for them to be functioning at least at a minimum level...otherwise, she may die of Kidney Failure, while you puzzle over what the 'illness'' is.


The alternative to ignoring or refusing to ensure that the privation-syndrome Bird is rehydrated according to a resonable schedule, prior to Meds, and absolutely prior to any sort of usual foods, is a very compromised or lethal outcome.


Make sense?


Best wishes!


Phil
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Discussion Starter #11
Thanks Phil I agree birds need hydration. Bootsy has been drinking on her own. I offered her a dish of warm water late last night and she drank in front of me. Her poops today are tiny white splotches with a dab of dark green in the center. She seems a little better.
 

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Thanks Phil I agree birds need hydration. Bootsy has been drinking on her own. I offered her a dish of warm water late last night and she drank in front of me. Her poops today are tiny white splotches with a dab of dark green in the center. She seems a little better.

Hi supoerflyer,



All of these seemingly small things combine to form important clinical indications.


If she was dehydrated, you needed to provide a positive intentional deliberate and actual rehydration protocol with electrolyte Solutions, and do it on a schedule for her to become adequately hydrated.


Is the little dab of green in the center, Bile? Or, actual fecal matter?


Smear some with a finger tip across white paper...if it is a pigment like jell, it is Bile.

If it is a very thin pigment with ruffage or fibre in it, it is fecal matter.


Did you administer any meds?


Let us know?



Phil
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Discussion Starter #13
Hey Phil I think it could be bile. What is bile? What does it mean in this context? Yesterday and today Bootsy was quite well eating food and grit and drinking. I think what I originally thought to be a small swollen spot on the lower eyelid may have been a tear drop. I saw the same thing this evening and when she blinked it dissappeared. I didn't give her meds yesterday but this evening I gave her a second 70 mg dose of Metranidazole. Last night I found an egg that was like a water balloon in her cage. The very flexible shell was not broken. There is a small possibility another hen landed on her cage and dropped the egg. Yesterday I noticed another hen looking ill. This evening I gave the 2nd hen Metranidazole. I also gave Jeroni the hen who is having a relapse of systemic paratyphoid a dose of Metranidazole. This afternoon Jeroni appeared puffed up and shivering. Earlier in the day her curled foot opened and she was walking on it. Jeroni ate with vigor and drank. Jeroni's usual symptoms beside the curled foot are lowered wings and arched back. A year ago Jeroni had lots of smelly poop then the infection spread to her leg which swelled up quite a bit. She had respiratory involvement too but it all disappeared and she has appeared well since spring until a month or so ago. Last winter I gave Jeroni Baytril 10%. I have many other meds but I have been hoping she can beat it on her own. I hear birds given lots of antibiotics often get compromised immune systems from them. and seem to catch anything that comes along. What do you think? I don't take antibiotics myself. A lady in my bird group said she takes several antibiotics everyday to stay healthy and as soon as she goes off them she is feeling terrible. I think Jeroni needs a dose of sunlight. She has been sitting in a spot light and that seemed to help her. Her condition is up and down.
 

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Hey Phil I think it could be bile. What is bile?

In Pigeons or Doves, we see Bile when their digestive system is either empty of food, or, not passing foods from the Crop.


Thus, it is a signal of present starvation or prolongued fasting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bile


What does it mean in this context?

It means either she had not eaten in several days, or, had eaten but the food was not passing the Crop or Stomach...



Yesterday and today Bootsy was quite well eating food and grit and drinking. I think what I originally thought to be a small swollen spot on the lower eyelid may have been a tear drop. I saw the same thing this evening and when she blinked it dissappeared.



Well...from here on, make it a point to observe details very intentionally, carefully, critically.


I saw the same thing this evening and when she blinked it dissappeared.

Okay...well, see if you can just examine her Eyes carefully and let us know anything out of the ordinary.


I didn't give her meds yesterday but this evening I gave her a second 70 mg dose of Metranidazole.

Unless she is an enormous Bird, that would be way too high a dose.


What does she weigh?


And, why are you giving Metronidazole?


Last night I found an egg that was like a water balloon in her cage. The very flexible shell was not broken. There is a small possibility another hen landed on her cage and dropped the egg. Yesterday I noticed another hen looking ill. This evening I gave the 2nd hen Metranidazole.



I think your Birds are having nutritional deficiencies and may be suffering from lack of direct, outdoor unfiltered Sunshine.


This will tend to be hardest on Hens, but, will be hard on any of them.



I also gave Jeroni the hen who is having a relapse of systemic paratyphoid a dose of Metranidazole.

Metronidazole has no applicibilty for Paratyphoid.


Please start a dedicated Thread if you wish, for any additional Birds who are apopearing ill.




This afternoon Jeroni appeared puffed up and shivering. Earlier in the day her curled foot opened and she was walking on it. Jeroni ate with vigor and drank. Jeroni's usual symptoms beside the curled foot are lowered wings and arched back.

What does 'usual symptoms' mean? And or how long as she been looking like thbis?


A year ago Jeroni had lots of smelly poop then the infection spread to her leg which swelled up quite a bit. She had respiratory involvement too but it all disappeared and she has appeared well since spring until a month or so ago. Last winter I gave Jeroni Baytril 10%. I have many other meds but I have been hoping she can beat it on her own.


Well...kinda hard to say.


How long was she on the Baytril for suspected/presumed paratyphoid? And, who made the diagnosis?


I hear birds given lots of antibiotics often get compromised immune systems from them.


It depends on if the antibiotic regimens are done incorrectly or for absurdly too long periods of time for the illness they were supposed to address.

Mostly, the Birds people have, have compromised immune systems to begin with, from dietary deficiencies and lack of direct Sunshine.



...and seem to catch anything that comes along. What do you think?

See above...


I don't take antibiotics myself. A lady in my bird group said she takes several antibiotics everyday to stay healthy and as soon as she goes off them she is feeling terrible. I think Jeroni needs a dose of sunlight. She has been sitting in a spot light and that seemed to help her. Her condition is up and down.


Antibiotics should be used correctly.

Beyond that, none of the generalizations one hears will have any utility or application.


The lady you mention is very foolish and is creating problems for herself.


Used incorrectly, there are problems which can occur.


Images of the Bird herself?


And, of today's freshest poops?


Best wishes!


Phil
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Discussion Starter #15
Thanks for the tips and advice Phil. All three looked good at midnight. Wiki says premature birth can be caused by Metronidazole. I think the drug caused the egg to come out early. All my birds get very good food and grit. Many of them do need more sun. Soon I will be building better facilities. I gave the same dose to the other two because they had mild symptoms similar to Bootsy and her condition improved quite a bit. I got the pills from Jedds. I think the bottle says give 1 100mg pill to each bird before a race. I'm not sure how pure the pills are. I gave 2/3 of a pill to each. I think I'm pretty good at diagnosing. I read and listen to smart people and I have the benefit of having a close relationship with some of my patients. I hear there are very many pigeons in LV that need care. Do you rescue birds in LV?
Check out http://www.wingswest.net/Pigeons/Health/Paratyphoid/paratyphoid.html
What do you think about the advice Wings West offers?:
 

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Calcium deficiencies or problems effecting Calcium/Magnesium/related assimilations, or, infections in or effecting the Oviduct, can result in insufficiently formed Egg Shells and in problems passing the soft 'egg'.


Metronidazole does not treat salmonella/Paratyphoid.


Dose should be in relation to the Bird's Weight, whatever the medicine.


Birth in Mammals is very different, maybe totally different than Egg Laying in Theropods/Aves.


You described symptoms of Egg Binding or of abdominal discomfort anyway, as being the Bird's "usual symptoms", and then never answered the quesiton of how long those symptoms had been going on, for them to be described as 'usual'.


How long had that been going on?



Phil
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Discussion Starter #17
Phil thanks for taking time to provide the helpful tips and advice, I'm not interested in having you be the doctor. My birds are better today. Bootsy laid a healthy egg a short time before the drug caused her to lay prematurely. People of the web beware to always use your own best judgment about things as you have much more knowledge about the bird in your care than persons hypothesizing from a distance. Seek many sources for information and carefully evaluate it before taking action.
 
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