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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
how many doses of kite do you think this bird has? The bird is also some amount of dirty also, comparing the bird to a dirty blue bar of similar age i have i would say just heterozygous. Also is split for recessive red.

I also want to know if you think the bird will molt more like the mother. This bird is just about 1 month of age.







the mother i thought was homozygous. The cock is a recessive red mottle which i do not know if he has kite or not. Have gotten 4 birds off them but only two of them are not recessive red/yellow. The first wasn't grizzle and i think is just heterozygous. Heres the mother. She also has some amount of dirty i believe and split for red also.

 

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I would say you are bang on, First one het kite with het rec red to darken it, Second looks **** kite. I think your first one will moult out more like the tippler in my album and not be as dark as the mum.

Kite is hard though as it varys a lot in expression so IMHO we can only guess based on look
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Will just have to wait longer it seems. The first one I bred was also dirty so the hen could be homoygous dirty. Her color is much darker than the first bird above which is richer. I'm planning on breeding the non grizzle son back to the mother hopefully later this year. He should be moulting soon, I'm wondering if I'll see any big changes. I want to take in a pet bird which I would hand raise but I only want one bird so I want an improved kite or tort. I don't think homoygous dirty is as good as het. These bronzes are so complexed.

Why is it that solid bronze show tipplers produce only red mottles? I spoke with a man awhile back trying to figure things out he was in Germany I believe working with German show tipplers which I think is just a English show tippler that they have a different standard for. He showed me his bird and the red mottles that come from them. So If your able to get red mottles from a solid bronze that would only lead to options. Show tipplers are grizzled or red mottling is produced by kite. Or red mottle can be made by kites or grizzle.

I'll post pictures up later Of birds
 

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Print Tippler, that is NOT true ,solid bronze show tipplers don't only breed red mottles. I've been breeding show tipplers for 50 years and I have a few pairs of solid bronze that breed 90% solid bronze ,maybe you would get one red mottle and one dark bronze.
 

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I ment they dont ever produce solid reds rights? Whenever a red comes it goes mottle eventually right?
It depends on which genes you have in your stock. Bronze mottle has not been completely explained as far as I know. I still think it is tiger grizzle, while others say it is a different factor.

I do know that some bronze mottles do breed solid reds (usually a low percentage) which stay solid, while many only breed red mottles (or rosewing as I have heard it called).
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
So is it kite causing the mottling? My real crucial question is how far can I breed my bird to achieve the bronze as show tippler. Is brander bronze a separate gene? Does it just improve a kite? Is it just undergrizzle added. Seems like there is no clear cut answer. No one has taken a bronze tippler and just bred it to a blue bar to determine?
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
What I'm trying to figure out was what was discussed but never concluded.
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f41/kite-35185.html

Whats in bold is what I'm trying to figure out. Also it looks like there is really I only couple of bronzes when you get down to it.

Anymore, I'm not so sure. Quinn listed 8 bronzes, Toy stencil, Kite, Roller, Brander, Tippler, Lebanon stencil, Archangel and Modena.

Modena bronze has been found to be the same as what is now called Ts1, the first stage of Toy stencil bronze, which has now been broken down to 3 factors, Ts1, Ts2 and Ts3. Dr Paul Gibson did the research on this and I have spoken with him quite a bit about it. He has admitted that Ts3 can be any number of factors which bring the bronze stencil markings to white. He was unable to isolate any single factor as Ts3 but named it anyway. He did at least prove there is a third step. My feeling is that Ts3 can be any number of bronzes or opal and even sometimes indigo. Paul agreed with this when I have talked with him.

A more recent study was done by Dick Cryberg on Modena bronze and I don't remember exactly what the results were but even Dick has questioned his own findings. This bronze stuff can be very confusing and it's study has been going on for a long time.

It seems that Lebanon stencil bronze is no longer thought to be a bronze of it's own. I don't know what to make of that, another breed that I had long ago and they always seemed unique to me.

This formula for making brander was posted awhile back and I sent it to a few people. It is basically the same formula that Paul Gibson gave to me for making brander and I sent it to him as well. I never understood how we could make brander if we didn't have it to begin with. I look at the old Danish Brander photos and they look different than what people call Brander today. I wonder now if it is just the addition of recessive red to the mix that makes the "modern brander". The accepted coloration today for brander birds, mainly in show tipplers, includes heterozygous recessive red to make the desired color. They are t pattern blue base, dirty, kite and het for recessive red. It's a simple formula and when I sent it around to a few people who also sent it around, some had doubts at first but some highly regarded persons said it is correct. My only question is, are these real kites or do they have something different? I'll try to answer it for myself with test breeding.

I never had kites that looked like the birds in these photos but I have them now. My kites were never that dark or glossy or showed that much bronze. I got a pair from someone who raises nothing but almonds and kites in show rollers. I remember looking at photos of his birds and wondering how they got them to be so dark and to show so much bronze. Just what they have in them to make them different than any other kites that I've ever had, I don't know. I spoke with the breeder and he says they are just kites and his dad started with them back in the 1940's. He said that he experimented with brander bronze at some point but got rid of all of them supposedly. Some look at these birds and say they are just dark branders, some say they are just kites. I don't know but I have both types and I'll try them with agates to see what I get from both kite forms that I have.

There is still confusion even among the experts about various bronzes. This may go on for quite a while although I'm not sure why. It can be confusing.

Bill

I always thought that brander was separate too as Quinn stated back in the 70's. I'm just not as sure anymore. I've found about a 50/50 split among the "experts".

I now have the "white eyed kites" that came from an almond show roller breeder who just calls them kites. Well, they are sure different than any kites I ever had before, looking just like the ones here from Holland. I plan to breed them to agates to see what I get.

One thing to make sure in breeding for brander color is not to have spread in the birds as they just become near blacks. Many recessive reds have spread as it helps with the recessive red expression. That's why they say to use agates (t pattern reds).

What you said above about producing red mottles, sounds like you may have the right combo with t pattern reds, not spreads. Did the reds tend to moult in more white or were they heavily mottled in the nest? The t pattern birds can be all red or show a feather or two of white but they tend to get more white feathers over time (rosewings). These are the agates and if we keep breeding them together, they will go toward whitesides. This has been illustrated by some as a three phase or three step process. I'm not 100% clear on it myself but that's what I have from a discussion about the agates.

Agates were always said to come from almond breeding and the reason is just simply that recessive red is part of the classic almond and so is t pattern. Spread tends to make the almonds grayish.

Bill

The two reds which I believe are t pattern and sure are kite and not spread came out the same way.
 

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rudolph.est, most of my recessive reds start out solid red and molt in mottle after their first molt, some get almost all white.
That is true for many people. And that is why I stated that it depends on your gene pool.

I only have experience in breeding homers. I bred about 25% solid rec red, 25% mottled rec. red (small ampounts of white appeared on shield and neck after th moult), 50% blue from a mottle rec red x split rec red daughter pair I had. I anly bred 8 birds though, so not a valid experiment. But I assume that the mottle in my reds was a recessive factor.

With selection one can increase the amount of white. But a bird with white will probably give that recessive gene to its progeny, so it is also difficult to get rid of the white.

Also, the split birds had no trace of bronze in their adult feathers. I can only assume that no bronze is necessary for the mottling of my homers. But there is a lot of research that states that bronze is necessary for mottling in tipplers.
 

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Print tippler, I have bred blue bar into my Brander Bronze tippers many times .I got Kites, F1 and got Brander Bronze after 3 generations .
I crossed Blue Bars into my Bronzes to improve the tail and tip, black bars.

rudolph.est, Did you get the Bronze in your homers using Indigo ?
 

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rudolph.est, Did you get the Bronze in your homers using Indigo ?
I did not have any bronze in my recessive red homers (I've switched to other breeding projects - so I don't have those birds anymore).

The bronzed sooty dirty bird I have now is definitely not indigo. As I explained recently (I can't remember whether it was this thread or another one). I would never call an indigo a bronze, for the simple fact that it would confuse everyone. Wherever possible I try to use the correct genetic term (when I am sure - or fairly sure about the genes involved).

I actually don't know which factor my bronze homer has, and as such I don't use a genetic term, or if I had to create one I would say homer bronze ;)
 
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