Pigeon-Talk banner
1 - 16 of 16 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
456 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
from another forum.


Some thoughts of Joe Nemelka on the SCMDR


A couple thoughts:

1. Losses -- here are reasons that I think the SCMDPR was a very difficult race this year in decreasing order of importance:

A. The weather -- was a hot, humid, headwind day. I have raced long enough to know that these factors literally will kill off the pigeons.
B. The distance -- it was a long way for a young bird to fly. 350 miles is pushing it for a young bird. Combine with above factor to conclude a "brutal race."
C. The training regime -- these birds are trained so short all year and then tossed into a 350 mile race. Most all pigeon races (one loft, club or otherwise) have a philosophy of not jumping pigeons longer than 75 miles between races. Going from 200 to 350 is quite a jump. Combine again with above factors to conclude a "brutal race."
D. The realities of one loft racing -- about 30% of the pigeons in a one loft race would be eliminated/lost by the normal fancier due to lack of quality or performance. In a one loft race--they try to keep them in the race. This 30% had no business being in the race and were pretty much 90% guaranteed to be lost on the 350.

2 Folks -- it is still always about the pigeon!

A. I did this analysis and put it on my website to illustrate my point to the US fanciers.
•Of interest, the USA did not have a very good showing in the race and I have heard many people complaining about the MDPR organizers and stuff. Frankly, I will just say that they are sour grapes. The USA just did not have the quality of pigeons to deliver the goods this year in the MDPR. Here is my point:
•Gerard Koopman sent 70 pigeons. The USA sent 488 pigeons.
•Gerard Koopman had 4 pigeons in the Top 100 pigeons. The USA had 9 pigeons in the Top 100.
•Gerard Koopman had 7 pigeons in the day. The USA had 12 pigeons in the day.
•So here a guy sends 14% of the pigeons that the whole USA sends and has:
•44% as many pigeons as the USA has in the Top 100
•58% as many pigeons as the USA has on the day.

•Conclusion -- we didn't send the same quality of pigeons that Koopman (and others) sent. We need to do better.
We can speculate about the birds going the wrong direction, old/young birds, etc. HOWEVER -- here is a single loft (very good one no less) that dominates a whole country when he sends 14% of the pigeons that the whole country sends? I will say it again -- it is still about the quality of the pigeons you send!


Joe
http://www.nemelkarpl.com/
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,851 Posts
Koopman is from holland or where ever. If your going to compair him to the US then your % is off. You are compairing one man with the whole US, how many birds came from Holland. I'm willing to bet The USA's 488 birds are less than 2% of the total birds that came from Holland.
Dave
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
457 Posts
Koopman is from holland or where ever. If your going to compair him to the US then your % is off. You are compairing one man with the whole US, how many birds came from Holland. I'm willing to bet The USA's 488 birds are less than 2% of the total birds that came from Holland.
Dave
I don't think you understood the comparision.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
160 Posts
from another forum.


Some thoughts of Joe Nemelka on the SCMDR


A couple thoughts:

1. Losses -- here are reasons that I think the SCMDPR was a very difficult race this year in decreasing order of importance:

A. The weather -- was a hot, humid, headwind day. I have raced long enough to know that these factors literally will kill off the pigeons.
B. The distance -- it was a long way for a young bird to fly. 350 miles is pushing it for a young bird. Combine with above factor to conclude a "brutal race."
C. The training regime -- these birds are trained so short all year and then tossed into a 350 mile race. Most all pigeon races (one loft, club or otherwise) have a philosophy of not jumping pigeons longer than 75 miles between races. Going from 200 to 350 is quite a jump. Combine again with above factors to conclude a "brutal race."
D. The realities of one loft racing -- about 30% of the pigeons in a one loft race would be eliminated/lost by the normal fancier due to lack of quality or performance. In a one loft race--they try to keep them in the race. This 30% had no business being in the race and were pretty much 90% guaranteed to be lost on the 350.

2 Folks -- it is still always about the pigeon!

A. I did this analysis and put it on my website to illustrate my point to the US fanciers.
•Of interest, the USA did not have a very good showing in the race and I have heard many people complaining about the MDPR organizers and stuff. Frankly, I will just say that they are sour grapes. The USA just did not have the quality of pigeons to deliver the goods this year in the MDPR. Here is my point:
•Gerard Koopman sent 70 pigeons. The USA sent 488 pigeons.
•Gerard Koopman had 4 pigeons in the Top 100 pigeons. The USA had 9 pigeons in the Top 100.
•Gerard Koopman had 7 pigeons in the day. The USA had 12 pigeons in the day.
•So here a guy sends 14% of the pigeons that the whole USA sends and has:
•44% as many pigeons as the USA has in the Top 100
•58% as many pigeons as the USA has on the day.

•Conclusion -- we didn't send the same quality of pigeons that Koopman (and others) sent. We need to do better.
We can speculate about the birds going the wrong direction, old/young birds, etc. HOWEVER -- here is a single loft (very good one no less) that dominates a whole country when he sends 14% of the pigeons that the whole country sends? I will say it again -- it is still about the quality of the pigeons you send!


Joe
http://www.nemelkarpl.com/

Hi, what forum was this on?

Thanks
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
160 Posts
The stats quoted are correct - based on that, Koopman did have the better showing (assuming all things managed equal at the race).

However, this is the first year for many Americans to enter this race. This race is quite unlike any other race in the USA. So randomly sending birds without doing the proper research as to the type of race, race conditions, training regimen, etc ..... who knows what kind of results to expect? With Koopman entering 50 - 100 birds every year, I say he has figured out what kind of bird has the better odds to make a top 100. I cannot say the same for those folks who have spent the big bucks on Koopman birds - as they need to figure out based on trial and error what breeding pairs can beat the odds !!

The race is not without controversy though - one of the sore points is the reduction from the 250 mile trainer to 200 mile. In the opinion of the critics, this was done to increase the number of birds going to the final race. Historically they had 1800 - 2200 going to the final race from after a 250mile trainer. Now with the reduced 200mile trainer (aka Hot Spot 5), this year 3300 + went to the final race which equates to $1000 each entry fee.

I am NOT here to criticize the race - but with a race of this magnitude, there has to be plenty to talk about and I have been there 4 times for the race. Look at the tiny one loft races with 50 - 700 birds in the USA - and the controversy/hate email that is usually generated. Imagine now a race with 5500+ starting entries !!!!

Clausing at one point ruled the roost - don't know what has happened lately to his breeding program. Carlos Avilla had the best bird in the history of the race - but no repeat performances. Koopman for the last 2 - 3 years has done well at this race with great numbers. South Africa's own Mark Kitchenbrand bought over $1 Million US worth of winning birds at this race - and has little or nothing to show for it - look at his results under "Club 500" this year.
And then 1500 birds end up staying in South Africa after the race in the loft of many South Africans - yet they cannot dominate !!!

My point is: has anyone besides Koopman have this race figured out?????
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,851 Posts
Yes I understand the point, He put one man knowledge of birds against all of the us. Witch is wrong. The way I see it Koopman sent 70 birds, most of witch did nothing.Lions Gate loft sent 4, and one did pretty good. Witch makes his average a hell of a lot better than Koopmans. If you want to make a comparison you should put the best with the best.
Dave
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
628 Posts
I disagree with the theory that jumping YB's more than 75 miles is not good. We proved that theory wrong in the last 2 years. We start 95% of our birds at 200 miles after only training from 35 miles (several weeks and several times) and our auction birds went on a 350 after only flying a single 200 mile "break them in race." We have placed well in the money following this method and will continue to use what works for us. Yes, a humid head wind day will seperate the wimpy birds from the tough determined birds. I personally love putting my Houbens up against the best on a tough head wind, humid or rainy, cause I know they will be there when the others quit.
Bottom line is Koopman has birds that are tough and determined and this is probably thru selective breeding. I applaud his birds performance in this and many other races.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
Joe Nemelka's comments

Joe Nemelka has hit nail squarely on the head. This year's race was probably one of the toughest yet. That Koopman has dominated the race over the past few years there is absolutely no question - check the performances of his entries as well as those of birds of his "strain" origin. Simply fantastic! Until the rest breed pigeons to suit the race and contributing conditions, Koopman birds will continue to dominate. Dr. Wim Pieters has some ideas on how to set about doing this.
Yes! the majority of scmdpr birds remain in South Africa and No! South African fanciers do not feature as prominently as they should. One theory is that SA bred birds (and probably most Southern hemisphere bred birds) will normally be at a different stage of the moult in January than Northern hemisphere bred birds. When January young bird racing took place a number of years ago in South Africa, the distances flown were to a maximum of around 250 miles over a very short five or six week period so the birds were not over-taxed to the same extent as scmd birds in training. Does this make a difference? I'm not sure but a very renowned Belgian fancier has suggested that SA fanciers should "play with light in their lofts" when breeding their intended entries. Will this work? Again, I'm not sure. Maybe someone could cast some light on this theory.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
160 Posts
The big guns continue to breed some of their entries in South Africa (though banded with their own bands). Unknown is whether those "South African bred" European entries are the ones in the top 100...

With the type of MDPR taxing training regimen, any stage of "moult" may be retarded....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
414 Posts
The stats quoted are correct - based on that, Koopman did have the better showing (assuming all things managed equal at the race).

However, this is the first year for many Americans to enter this race. This race is quite unlike any other race in the USA. So randomly sending birds without doing the proper research as to the type of race, race conditions, training regimen, etc ..... who knows what kind of results to expect? With Koopman entering 50 - 100 birds every year, I say he has figured out what kind of bird has the better odds to make a top 100. I cannot say the same for those folks who have spent the big bucks on Koopman birds - as they need to figure out based on trial and error what breeding pairs can beat the odds !!

The race is not without controversy though - one of the sore points is the reduction from the 250 mile trainer to 200 mile. In the opinion of the critics, this was done to increase the number of birds going to the final race. Historically they had 1800 - 2200 going to the final race from after a 250mile trainer. Now with the reduced 200mile trainer (aka Hot Spot 5), this year 3300 + went to the final race which equates to $1000 each entry fee.

I am NOT here to criticize the race - but with a race of this magnitude, there has to be plenty to talk about and I have been there 4 times for the race. Look at the tiny one loft races with 50 - 700 birds in the USA - and the controversy/hate email that is usually generated. Imagine now a race with 5500+ starting entries !!!!

Clausing at one point ruled the roost - don't know what has happened lately to his breeding program. Carlos Avilla had the best bird in the history of the race - but no repeat performances. Koopman for the last 2 - 3 years has done well at this race with great numbers. South Africa's own Mark Kitchenbrand bought over $1 Million US worth of winning birds at this race - and has little or nothing to show for it - look at his results under "Club 500" this year.
And then 1500 birds end up staying in South Africa after the race in the loft of many South Africans - yet they cannot dominate !!!

My point is: has anyone besides Koopman have this race figured out?????
From my angle if your sending 50-100 birds to a race you dont have things figured out....your just putting up the numbers and crossing your fingers IMO
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,851 Posts
Crossing yor fingers, exactly, if he is going to pick a person from 1 country he should pick 1 persom from the USA. If you want thing to be equal you have to take the 400+ birds from the Neatherlands and the 400 + birds from the USA. now how many were in the top 10 %.
They may still have us beat, but did any of the people from the USA send 70 birds. I'm just saying lets be fair.
Dave
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
160 Posts
From my angle if your sending 50-100 birds to a race you dont have things figured out....your just putting up the numbers and crossing your fingers IMO
I'm not here to advocate nor discount Koop and his birds but
depends on the definition of "figured out" ...

I say he has figured out how to rake in the megabucks at this race.
Every auction bird of his that came back from the race will sell for $1000 - $20,000 each .... he's got some "figures" there ;) So you send 100, lose 30 at settling, get back 30-40 from the final race.... it figures pretty quick.
And he has the backing of the MDPR organizers - as they get 50% of the proceeds... that could almost be qualified as "illegal" if you factor in the entire scenario!

If I have the opportunity to do what Koop's doing versus my regular day job ....
If I had the oppportunity to do what Ganus did in previous years ....

It's a money making business model...that's my point - it's not really about the pigeons. It is quite possible the USA probably has just as good or better birds than him...

On the flip side, in Taiwan and USA, he has not dominated as he did in MDPR.... can I ask why? He sent birds to Vegas Classic and he has sent MANY birds to Taiwan the last 3 years.... nada !!!!

Some will argue that Koopman birds have dominated the USA - I am talking about direct birds banded, bred and sent to a money race by Koopman himself. Because we "know" some winners are Janssen, Koopman, Ganus, or whatever else you want them to be....just to sell them!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
414 Posts
From what you just explained i guess i misunderstood what you meant by "figured out". I apologize then....so from a financial stand point i guess from the little i do know it appears he does as the making money part figured out...i think it would be a nice problem to have.
 
1 - 16 of 16 Posts
Top