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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Am I just and idiot or is the pigeon sport going nuts? I spent a few minutes looking over auction sites and saw a Ganus winner of a 55 bird race going for 3k. What the heck are people thinking. People are spending thousands on paper with a bird attached. I would challenge a guy to go out and spend no limit money on the best 10 Ganus or Sure Bet peds and then go to his local club and pick the 10 top race birds from the club. Breed each batch separately and see what happens. I would put money on the race birds.

A guy could come visit me and could walk away with Ganus filled paper and a few birds for a bit of time to make the trip. Yet at the same time I could fill his basket with a handful of siblings of futurity winners, high points birds and bros and sisters of my best breeders. Most would take the Ganus paperwork birds over the result based birds.

I still find it amazing how a Surebet bird will out bid a Sangers bird, a Herbots bird, and even a Ludo bird. This is nuts.

I guess this is why the Europeans think Americans are looney. They study race results not pedigrees.

Please take a bit of time and look at the race results. There are some very good families out there winning their fair share of futurity races with large number of birds. Quit wasting your money on double inbred, double grandsons of fifth generation nonsense. Spend $50 bucks on two brothers of your clubs high points bird.

Randy
 

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i happened to know the guy that bought that bird for 3k, its the son of "BLACK WIDOW", from champ camp race lofts. and he is really exited to put that bird to breed and enter the money race.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
yes they are bloodlines created by people and I do agree just because the bird comes froma certian line doesnt make it a great bird ;)
My point is that birds off of National champions in Belgium go for thousands less than a Sure Bet bird. It has nothing to do with where the bird is from, but more the fact of how a bird is valued. If it says Ganus in the pedigree people think it is a great bird. Where did Ganus get his birds? From World Champion fliers where you can get the same bloodlines for thousands less. Why don't you think Ganus reveals his sources or the birds origin on the pedigree? So you and I don't give them a call and get some imports.

I also think the point is verified when fanciers in here do not know who Sangers, Herbots, and Ludo are. These are just names off the top of my head, but the list is long for Champion fliers in Belgium and the Netherlands.

I wonder why Heckamer, Hees, Berkey and the like don't pedal birds on the auctions? These birds are some of the best in the US. Maybe the fact is they do not have to. My mentor just picked up some nice Engels proven pairs from Darryl Bruckner for $200 a pair. A far cry from $3000 and birds that fly in the largest club in the US and do quite well.

Just look at the Pipa auctions. Birds with good flying records against far better competition and numbers you will find in a 55 bird futurity are affordable.

Randy
 

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I am myself not into pedigree, but I use it as a guide. I prefer race results (performance). I think a difference between a master and a beginner is that the master knows this stuff: pedigrees don't fly. Now if the bird has good pedigree and can back up the reputation through results (I am thinking of Ludo birds for example), then those definitely would be expensive birds and deservingly so. A pedigree alone wont make a bird a champion. But people bet anyhow and hoping that they get lucky when they purchase an expensive birds.
 
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I agree most people dont even know what they are looking for other then that of a name of a line that has done well .. thats why I for one do appreciate any input you have on the good birds that are out there and what else one should be looking for so thanks Randy you are good at what you know and pass on to others ;)
 

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I myself like "performance" birds not pedigrees, this is my third year racing I took the winners from last year and breed them togeather with good results,and this year I am breeding from winners also as the old saying goes "THE APPLE DON'T FALL FOR FROM THE TREE"
 

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I myself like "performance" birds not pedigrees, this is my third year racing I took the winners from last year and breed them togeather with good results,and this year I am breeding from winners also as the old saying goes "THE APPLE DON'T FALL FOR FROM THE TREE"
Top placing, consistant birds, that will come from over 300 miles as yb's. This is what I look for and like you I think apple/tree. Bad racers can be great breeders, "I know from experience", but I think you will increase you chances of breeding good babies if you get good racers.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Top placing, consistant birds, that will come from over 300 miles as yb's. This is what I look for and like you I think apple/tree. Bad racers can be great breeders, "I know from experience", but I think you will increase you chances of breeding good babies if you get good racers.
Ohio
I think you are on to something about the apple 300 mile theory. This year I took my young bird results with two qualifications in mind, families that raced all the races including the 300 and top 10% finishers. I bred 45 extra young birds this year with the theory that all the siblings of the top birds will go into the breeding loft. I had four quality young birds this year and out of Ace's 10 birds two very good birds. I am also testing this theory. Three of the top young birds went to ACE, and one stayed with my partner in ABQ. So I am not breeding from the proven racers, but their same siblings or siblings of birds that bred the winners. A clear apple theory. What this will do is narrow my bloodlines. My thoughts are that all my young birds will have winning blood. No blood this year will be in question.

My outside bloodline that will be introduced this year is from ACE, 5 birds, three sisters of his 7732 and a mother son team. I am bringing in three siblings of my 2nd high points bird, 4 siblings of the cock that bred him and another top bird, and another brother to my best cock.

Randy
 

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people are idiots I guess. Pipa offer great birds with superb race results running through the pedigree. Parents and siblings to birds being sold on pipa all come down from proven performing lines. The auction on ipigeon with majority of ganus birds or blood that are in the top 10 in the futurity race are going for outrageous price. You can buy a few super birds on pipa and that would include quarantine and shipping fees as well and still wouldn't break the bank, compared to what the price is going for those Ganus blood on ipigeon. Ridiculous
 

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I personally have had poor experience with GFL banded birds. When I am in the same races (sometimes in the same loft) as GFL banded birds and my birds (which are not down from GFL lines) outperform his then I consider mine much better for flying than his. Some of the best birds I accquired are from "little known" flyers. Randy, I agree with you 100% on this. Buyers be smart, use your head and not your heart. It is easier to carry on conversation about all the big name birds in your loft than "your own personal line or the unknown flyer down the road."
Ken
 

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Ohio
I think you are on to something about the apple 300 mile theory. This year I took my young bird results with two qualifications in mind, families that raced all the races including the 300 and top 10% finishers. I bred 45 extra young birds this year with the theory that all the siblings of the top birds will go into the breeding loft. I had four quality young birds this year and out of Ace's 10 birds two very good birds. I am also testing this theory. Three of the top young birds went to ACE, and one stayed with my partner in ABQ. So I am not breeding from the proven racers, but their same siblings or siblings of birds that bred the winners. A clear apple theory. What this will do is narrow my bloodlines. My thoughts are that all my young birds will have winning blood. No blood this year will be in question.

My outside bloodline that will be introduced this year is from ACE, 5 birds, three sisters of his 7732 and a mother son team. I am bringing in three siblings of my 2nd high points bird, 4 siblings of the cock that bred him and another top bird, and another brother to my best cock.

Randy
My story is simular and the reason I think the way I do. I have a foundation cock, son of a winner of the Midwest one loft race. That is 300+ so the first year I bred this bird I got a bird that placed 6th at our 340. I bred this to a 300 mile winner last year and got a 340 futurity money winner. My first year I had anouther hen that placed 8th 340 (mother to this bird won 340 yb race). So, last year I bred her to my foundation cock. I got the best 2 birds I ever flew. One was top ten in every race I entered him in and came alone to my loft everytime beating all my birds. The brother to this bird won me some money taking 5th in our 300m bond race and placeing top ten most the time I sent him.

I have now aquired a half brother to my foundation cock and kept 4 grandchildren back for stock. The problem I am having is this family I am making is heavy on cocks and I have not got hens to put back in yet. I am hoping one of the grandchildren is a hen. I am 90 percent sure 3 of 4 are cocks.
 

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people are idiots I guess. Pipa offer great birds with superb race results running through the pedigree. Parents and siblings to birds being sold on pipa all come down from proven performing lines. The auction on ipigeon with majority of ganus birds or blood that are in the top 10 in the futurity race are going for outrageous price. You can buy a few super birds on pipa and that would include quarantine and shipping fees as well and still wouldn't break the bank, compared to what the price is going for those Ganus blood on ipigeon. Ridiculous
Well...:rolleyes:....just to throw in my two cent view...which is only for today, and subject to change....:p

Pigeons are a very unique creatures, as no two are ever exactly alike. The concept of worth, or value, is a very subjective term. Let's for a moment, compare them to art, which people buy in order to place on their walls, because they like it....or they "Invest" in it, hoping that at some point, someone will pay them more then they paid for it. Who is to say what the value of a particular piece of art work is worth ? Turns out, that it is worth what a buyer and a seller agree to exchange it for.

Racing pigeons, are a bit like art, and a bit like Race Horses. A promising looking colt, with a very famous sire, can command many hundreds of thousands of dollars. And what are the buyers paying for, but a nice looking colt with a great pedigree. Does not mean it will be a great racer or a breeder, but many experienced horse people understand the value of a good pedigree.

I don't really have any idea what the real "value" or "worth" is of any of Mike's birds might be at any given moment. I have over the years purchased a number of birds with "GFL" bands on their legs. Both directly from Mike as YB's and on the secondary market. Some may have in hind site been over priced, and some as it turns out, were an absolute steal !

Now, digressing a bit back to art....I have seen pieces that many thousands of $$$'s were "Invested" into them....that I would not put into my house if you paid me !!! Let alone "Invest" any money into them. Were the people who paid $$$ for them all idiots ? Some of them turned into some very shrewd investments, which made the people who "Invested" in them look like geniuses not idiots. And, the same can be said about any number of racing pigeons. Turns out, in a number of cases, that some of the real idiots, were the people who did not see the real value.

Same could be said of all transactions which occur every day on the New York Stock Exchange. I like this example, because I am a retired stock broker. On any given day, someone sells the stock of a company, because they no longer see the value any more, at the price they can sell it for. The buyer on the other hand, perceives value that the seller does not. Only the future can tell who made the better deal. At the time of the transaction, the market itself determines what the value is, based on the known facts.

With Racing Pigeons, Art, Race Horses, Rare Coins, and many other special things in life. There is also a value, and worth, in the emotional satisfaction of owning something. Collectors are well aware of this. Very rare, and highly desirable works of art, or rare coins, or fine horses, vintage wines, and yes even racing pigeons....all can give tremendous personal satisfaction in simply owning them.

So, just perhaps.....what you could be over looking, is the "satisfaction" value of owning a highly sought after GFL banded bird on a public auction. And I dare say, that quite possibly, the higher the price paid, the more satisfaction value, the buyer may get from it. Without understanding this very basic part of human nature, you won't understand or appreciate the prices offered for racing pigeons. I know that I myself, have gotten a lot more emotional satisfaction from going out to my loft everyday, and looking at my rare collection (that some people can only dream about ;)) then I have ever gotten from winning another diploma to place on the stack.

Turned out to be a big bucket of two cents....:cool:
 

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I agree totally ganus does have nice birds and he sells nice birds. He has some of the best pigeons in the world he is bound to get good ones. Some of the pigeons he has sold are super pigeons and have founded many lofts. The problem is that maybe 1 percent or less (probably alot less) are super pigeons and it don't matter if they cost $5 or $5000 the percentage may still be the same. So, alot of people put too much expectation into an expensive bird that has still that small percentage of being great.
 

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I agree totally ganus does have nice birds and he sells nice birds. He has some of the best pigeons in the world he is bound to get good ones. Some of the pigeons he has sold are super pigeons and have founded many lofts. The problem is that maybe 1 percent or less (probably alot less) are super pigeons and it don't matter if they cost $5 or $5000 the percentage may still be the same. So, alot of people put too much expectation into an expensive bird that has still that small percentage of being great.
I agree a 100%, even really great, World Class fanciers, will often admit, that if they breed say 10-15% "Exceptional" birds in a year, that would be super duper. If you are going to purchase unproven YB's from Mike, you should purchase a couple dozen and then fly them. At the end of the season you can sort through them, and some % of those will make great breeders.
 

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Seem's nobody has actualy touched on the handling of the pigeon.I've seen mediocre flyers buy an expensive bird, hopeing to be elevated to top of the race sheet. Only to be relugated to the bottom with their poor management.
You cannot make a winner out of a dud, it's far easier to make dud out of a winner.
I concur with Whitesnmore, you can find gem's from the "unknown flyer". One must also realize there are two types of flyers.Those that purchase big money bird's and hope it will give them a head start, and those that like to mature ther strain into winners. Nothing wrong with either...name of the game.
I question the word "idiot"? Regardless of our riche's. We are pigeon flyer's, first and foremost.
 

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Seem's nobody has actualy touched on the handling of the pigeon.I've seen mediocre flyers buy an expensive bird, hopeing to be elevated to top of the race sheet. Only to be relugated to the bottom with their poor management.
You cannot make a winner out of a dud, it's far easier to make dud out of a winner.
I concur with Whitesnmore, you can find gem's from the "unknown flyer". One must also realize there are two types of flyers.Those that purchase big money bird's and hope it will give them a head start, and those that like to mature ther strain into winners. Nothing wrong with either...name of the game.
I question the word "idiot"? Regardless of our riche's. We are pigeon flyer's, first and foremost.
I agree, very good points.

Let's not forget, that a major part of the fun, at least for me in this hobby, is the "tale talking" (or some more descriptive word) at the local pigeon club and "horse trading" with pigeon friends. I remember back in the "good ole days" when I first started in this game, a $1.50 was a big price to pay for a pigeon. Some of my first ones were so called "barn pigeons" that were purchased for .25 cents each at a farmers market. If nothing else, these auctions and the small talk it generates and the posts it generates, make for some interesting discussion. And how many of us, regardless of the amounts spent, can't honestly say, that some of the best pigeons we have ever owned, were gifted or loaned pigeons, or birds traded for that didn't cost us even a dime? And that applies to every fancier at every level, even the very greatest World Class Champions.

Besides, there is not exactly a whole lot to do with my pigeons right now. I'm in the loft only about 4 times a day, and it's pretty cold out there. :rolleyes:
 
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