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does anyone have a good pic of what the color called kite is?
Kite
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Kite Dutch Highfliers
Here are some Kite-pictures from Holland. These are (too dark) Brander-bronze Dutch Highfliers.
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Here are some Kite-pictures from Holland. These are (too dark) Brander-bronze Dutch Highfliers.
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Now I am confused, I always thought that kite and brander bronze were different bronzes? I probably got it wrong (AGAIN!).
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So did I
Anymore, I'm not so sure. Quinn listed 8 bronzes, Toy stencil, Kite, Roller, Brander, Tippler, Lebanon stencil, Archangel and Modena.
Modena bronze has been found to be the same as what is now called Ts1, the first stage of Toy stencil bronze, which has now been broken down to 3 factors, Ts1, Ts2 and Ts3. Dr Paul Gibson did the research on this and I have spoken with him quite a bit about it. He has admitted that Ts3 can be any number of factors which bring the bronze stencil markings to white. He was unable to isolate any single factor as Ts3 but named it anyway. He did at least prove there is a third step. My feeling is that Ts3 can be any number of bronzes or opal and even sometimes indigo. Paul agreed with this when I have talked with him.
A more recent study was done by Dick Cryberg on Modena bronze and I don't remember exactly what the results were but even Dick has questioned his own findings. This bronze stuff can be very confusing and it's study has been going on for a long time.
It seems that Lebanon stencil bronze is no longer thought to be a bronze of it's own. I don't know what to make of that, another breed that I had long ago and they always seemed unique to me.
This formula for making brander was posted awhile back and I sent it to a few people. It is basically the same formula that Paul Gibson gave to me for making brander and I sent it to him as well. I never understood how we could make brander if we didn't have it to begin with. I look at the old Danish Brander photos and they look different than what people call Brander today. I wonder now if it is just the addition of recessive red to the mix that makes the "modern brander". The accepted coloration today for brander birds, mainly in show tipplers, includes heterozygous recessive red to make the desired color. They are t pattern blue base, dirty, kite and het for recessive red. It's a simple formula and when I sent it around to a few people who also sent it around, some had doubts at first but some highly regarded persons said it is correct. My only question is, are these real kites or do they have something different? I'll try to answer it for myself with test breeding.
I never had kites that looked like the birds in these photos but I have them now. My kites were never that dark or glossy or showed that much bronze. I got a pair from someone who raises nothing but almonds and kites in show rollers. I remember looking at photos of his birds and wondering how they got them to be so dark and to show so much bronze. Just what they have in them to make them different than any other kites that I've ever had, I don't know. I spoke with the breeder and he says they are just kites and his dad started with them back in the 1940's. He said that he experimented with brander bronze at some point but got rid of all of them supposedly. Some look at these birds and say they are just dark branders, some say they are just kites. I don't know but I have both types and I'll try them with agates to see what I get from both kite forms that I have.
There is still confusion even among the experts about various bronzes. This may go on for quite a while although I'm not sure why. It can be confusing.
Bill
Anymore, I'm not so sure. Quinn listed 8 bronzes, Toy stencil, Kite, Roller, Brander, Tippler, Lebanon stencil, Archangel and Modena.
Modena bronze has been found to be the same as what is now called Ts1, the first stage of Toy stencil bronze, which has now been broken down to 3 factors, Ts1, Ts2 and Ts3. Dr Paul Gibson did the research on this and I have spoken with him quite a bit about it. He has admitted that Ts3 can be any number of factors which bring the bronze stencil markings to white. He was unable to isolate any single factor as Ts3 but named it anyway. He did at least prove there is a third step. My feeling is that Ts3 can be any number of bronzes or opal and even sometimes indigo. Paul agreed with this when I have talked with him.
A more recent study was done by Dick Cryberg on Modena bronze and I don't remember exactly what the results were but even Dick has questioned his own findings. This bronze stuff can be very confusing and it's study has been going on for a long time.
It seems that Lebanon stencil bronze is no longer thought to be a bronze of it's own. I don't know what to make of that, another breed that I had long ago and they always seemed unique to me.
This formula for making brander was posted awhile back and I sent it to a few people. It is basically the same formula that Paul Gibson gave to me for making brander and I sent it to him as well. I never understood how we could make brander if we didn't have it to begin with. I look at the old Danish Brander photos and they look different than what people call Brander today. I wonder now if it is just the addition of recessive red to the mix that makes the "modern brander". The accepted coloration today for brander birds, mainly in show tipplers, includes heterozygous recessive red to make the desired color. They are t pattern blue base, dirty, kite and het for recessive red. It's a simple formula and when I sent it around to a few people who also sent it around, some had doubts at first but some highly regarded persons said it is correct. My only question is, are these real kites or do they have something different? I'll try to answer it for myself with test breeding.
I never had kites that looked like the birds in these photos but I have them now. My kites were never that dark or glossy or showed that much bronze. I got a pair from someone who raises nothing but almonds and kites in show rollers. I remember looking at photos of his birds and wondering how they got them to be so dark and to show so much bronze. Just what they have in them to make them different than any other kites that I've ever had, I don't know. I spoke with the breeder and he says they are just kites and his dad started with them back in the 1940's. He said that he experimented with brander bronze at some point but got rid of all of them supposedly. Some look at these birds and say they are just dark branders, some say they are just kites. I don't know but I have both types and I'll try them with agates to see what I get from both kite forms that I have.
There is still confusion even among the experts about various bronzes. This may go on for quite a while although I'm not sure why. It can be confusing.
Bill
I have almond and kite flying oriental rollers. The kites I have are dark black with the bronze on their wing feathers. Some have black legs and beaks and others have the flesh colored beaks and legs like the almonds. Some carry the kite genes but look like a common dark checked feral. All my birds are from a kite cock and almond hen.
I've just started breeding brander bronze into flying Birmingham Rollers using an initial recessive red roller mated to a show tippler hen - this first cross has produced both Brander Bronze and Red Mottle youngsters.
From my observation (based on a passion for recessive red and bronze colouring) there simply has to be a seperate brander bronze gene ..... whilst standard Kite colouring and "Brander Kite" may well look the same they are different. The standard Kite mated to recessive red does not produce breed Brander Bronze (or, at least to my knowledge).
From my initial Rec Red / Brander cross it's clear to me that there is a distinct 'brander' gene which is a Dominant (K B superscript. The Brander bronze seems to be a combination of the specific Brander Bronze gene with Blue, T Pattern, and recessive red .... similar matings without the brander gene simply produce 'typical' roller bronze/kite. If the Brander bronze is not the result of a seperate gene then why don't turn up in 'conventional' recessive red/bronze/kite matings? Incidently the white eye (maybe not exactly identical to Pearl) seems to follow through with the brander colour ..... even when crossed into lines of orange eyed birds!
This wing shot is of a 6 week old youngster
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From my observation (based on a passion for recessive red and bronze colouring) there simply has to be a seperate brander bronze gene ..... whilst standard Kite colouring and "Brander Kite" may well look the same they are different. The standard Kite mated to recessive red does not produce breed Brander Bronze (or, at least to my knowledge).
From my initial Rec Red / Brander cross it's clear to me that there is a distinct 'brander' gene which is a Dominant (K B superscript. The Brander bronze seems to be a combination of the specific Brander Bronze gene with Blue, T Pattern, and recessive red .... similar matings without the brander gene simply produce 'typical' roller bronze/kite. If the Brander bronze is not the result of a seperate gene then why don't turn up in 'conventional' recessive red/bronze/kite matings? Incidently the white eye (maybe not exactly identical to Pearl) seems to follow through with the brander colour ..... even when crossed into lines of orange eyed birds!
This wing shot is of a 6 week old youngster
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Smoky and dirty
Smoky puts light beaks on dark birds and eliminates visible albescent strips. Smoky also tends to spread or intensify bronzes and reds. Het smokys will have short albescent strips and often result in the black tipped beaks.
Bill
Dirty (verdunkel) makes the dark beaks, toenails and legs. Normally, they will change to red legs as they mature. You can have homozygous and heterozygous dirty birds which would be sort of halftone dirty.
Smoky puts light beaks on dark birds and eliminates visible albescent strips. Smoky also tends to spread or intensify bronzes and reds. Het smokys will have short albescent strips and often result in the black tipped beaks.
Bill
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Great color
I now have the "white eyed kites" that came from an almond show roller breeder who just calls them kites. Well, they are sure different than any kites I ever had before, looking just like the ones here from Holland. I plan to breed them to agates to see what I get.
One thing to make sure in breeding for brander color is not to have spread in the birds as they just become near blacks. Many recessive reds have spread as it helps with the recessive red expression. That's why they say to use agates (t pattern reds).
What you said above about producing red mottles, sounds like you may have the right combo with t pattern reds, not spreads. Did the reds tend to moult in more white or were they heavily mottled in the nest? The t pattern birds can be all red or show a feather or two of white but they tend to get more white feathers over time (rosewings). These are the agates and if we keep breeding them together, they will go toward whitesides. This has been illustrated by some as a three phase or three step process. I'm not 100% clear on it myself but that's what I have from a discussion about the agates.
Agates were always said to come from almond breeding and the reason is just simply that recessive red is part of the classic almond and so is t pattern. Spread tends to make the almonds grayish.
Bill
I always thought that brander was separate too as Quinn stated back in the 70's. I'm just not as sure anymore. I've found about a 50/50 split among the "experts".I've just started breeding brander bronze into flying Birmingham Rollers using an initial recessive red roller mated to a show tippler hen - this first cross has produced both Brander Bronze and Red Mottle youngsters.
From my observation (based on a passion for recessive red and bronze colouring) there simply has to be a seperate brander bronze gene ..... whilst standard Kite colouring and "Brander Kite" may well look the same they are different. The standard Kite mated to recessive red does not produce breed Brander Bronze (or, at least to my knowledge).
From my initial Rec Red / Brander cross it's clear to me that there is a distinct 'brander' gene which is a Dominant (K B superscript. The Brander bronze seems to be a combination of the specific Brander Bronze gene with Blue, T Pattern, and recessive red .... similar matings without the brander gene simply produce 'typical' roller bronze/kite. If the Brander bronze is not the result of a seperate gene then why don't turn up in 'conventional' recessive red/bronze/kite matings? Incidently the white eye (maybe not exactly identical to Pearl) seems to follow through with the brander colour ..... even when crossed into lines of orange eyed birds!
This wing shot is of a 6 week old youngster
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I now have the "white eyed kites" that came from an almond show roller breeder who just calls them kites. Well, they are sure different than any kites I ever had before, looking just like the ones here from Holland. I plan to breed them to agates to see what I get.
One thing to make sure in breeding for brander color is not to have spread in the birds as they just become near blacks. Many recessive reds have spread as it helps with the recessive red expression. That's why they say to use agates (t pattern reds).
What you said above about producing red mottles, sounds like you may have the right combo with t pattern reds, not spreads. Did the reds tend to moult in more white or were they heavily mottled in the nest? The t pattern birds can be all red or show a feather or two of white but they tend to get more white feathers over time (rosewings). These are the agates and if we keep breeding them together, they will go toward whitesides. This has been illustrated by some as a three phase or three step process. I'm not 100% clear on it myself but that's what I have from a discussion about the agates.
Agates were always said to come from almond breeding and the reason is just simply that recessive red is part of the classic almond and so is t pattern. Spread tends to make the almonds grayish.
Bill
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nice Jacobin.
this is a kite grizzle frillback cross WOE
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this is a kite grizzle frillback cross WOE
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Hey Luke!
Like it!! Now you need an almond mate!!!
BTW, how far removed from WOE is that bird?
Like it!! Now you need an almond mate!!!
BTW, how far removed from WOE is that bird?
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Now THAT is a nice looking pigeon. Gorgeous. Yea, how far removed from WoE is it?nice Jacobin.
this is a kite grizzle frillback cross WOE
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Lukes a while away from posting but I think this hen is 1/4 west, So its the second cross making it a BC1 if wanting to be technical.
Nice curl for a second cross yeah? This bird was paired to lukes really curly Blue frillback that you have commented on Chris. They produced birds with curl better than some of the (pure) frillbacks I have seen in shows here in NZ, But don't let Steve hear me saying that hehe.
Nice curl for a second cross yeah? This bird was paired to lukes really curly Blue frillback that you have commented on Chris. They produced birds with curl better than some of the (pure) frillbacks I have seen in shows here in NZ, But don't let Steve hear me saying that hehe.
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That is very nice looking wing.Could you show us a picture of the rest of the bird.I've just started breeding brander bronze into flying Birmingham Rollers using an initial recessive red roller mated to a show tippler hen - this first cross has produced both Brander Bronze and Red Mottle youngsters.
From my observation (based on a passion for recessive red and bronze colouring) there simply has to be a seperate brander bronze gene ..... whilst standard Kite colouring and "Brander Kite" may well look the same they are different. The standard Kite mated to recessive red does not produce breed Brander Bronze (or, at least to my knowledge).
From my initial Rec Red / Brander cross it's clear to me that there is a distinct 'brander' gene which is a Dominant (K B superscript. The Brander bronze seems to be a combination of the specific Brander Bronze gene with Blue, T Pattern, and recessive red .... similar matings without the brander gene simply produce 'typical' roller bronze/kite. If the Brander bronze is not the result of a seperate gene then why don't turn up in 'conventional' recessive red/bronze/kite matings? Incidently the white eye (maybe not exactly identical to Pearl) seems to follow through with the brander colour ..... even when crossed into lines of orange eyed birds!
This wing shot is of a 6 week old youngster
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Tom this is one of my favorite pigeons of yours. {I thinks its the almond one}Kite with it's almond mate
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She was a BC1 so 1/4 woe and 3/4 fb
I bred a real mix from her. she also carries rec red.
I still havn't bred a rec red but I have a lot of young ones which I think are het. There is one in the nest at the moment with flesh colour beak and black ring at the end so hopefully soon...
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Keep showing those frillback pics Luke and Evan! I won't tell Steve about the curl or anyone else on that group about "muddying the waters".....LOL! More seriously they look really good and you are probably improving stamina and adding more colors. I have no doubt you will get curl back. Nice muffs too!
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