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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I keep hearing from so many pigeon people that they med med med! WHY, pigeons do not need them in the most part? I know that it is human nature to help, even if we are not the best qualified. Sellers will alway sell what ever meds they can pump, it is written throughout human history. Pigeons are among the strongest most disease free animals on earth. The need for pigeon meds is extreamly far less than that in humans, and we far over med ourselves as a whole. If you have a bird that can not possibly live without meds it is most likley because meds were used throughout the family. When I hear of meds being used as a preventative I cringe. Jim
 

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Well for one pigeon loft kept are as people you have exposer. Send your children to school one child that is sick and it spreads to the other children. NOW in the wild yes maybe less get sick But who knows for sure. Mixing your birds with birds from other lofts on race day you expose the birds to possible sick birds. AND several desease that strike the birds can kill rather fast if not treated. Now prevention Before the races you want to treat your birds PMV you have to trust that the other breeders did treat the birds BUT if you did then your a little safer. Show your birds they get exposed to other outside birds. Over treat your birds well agin they become weaker. And birds do become carriers of desease. There they can have flare ups or expose others and pass it on. Yes many people do go over board. So question is what and how to treat the birds. Prevention is best. Just as changing your oil in your car. Dont change your risk ruining your engine. Before racing. before breeding, during training are good times to treat and watch for sickness. Simple common treatments. Worming. canker, pharthyphoid. pmv. Extra calcium for hens. ACV and vit, you have most common sickness covered. NOW keep your birds from being exposed to any out side birds then you have a greater chance of health. BUT thats hard to do
 

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jimhalekw: I happen to feel the same way and from reading the many different posts I also cringe sometimes-especially when it is used as a preventive on a very sick bird and people forget about the side effects of the medicine alone and how in the world can they judge a sickness if it has 3 or 4 other things in it at the same time to diagnose it. I disagree by using it as a preventive until you actually know for sure that the bird has canker or worms or whatever when at the same time maybe its guts or something is torned out--can.t see it--wait until later when the bird is strong enough for these types of medicines---they just assume that these birds have these diseases: Canker,Worms and give it as a preventative---wonderful medicines if need them--but can have some harsh side effects--I medicate on true sickness not potential or imagainary or surely not on a five day old baby on baby formula (with no symptoms) (on one of the posts)--don't really want any anquish over this posting message from disagreements for I just wanted to say that I agree with the first message--it makes me cringe too...There are times for medicines but not when a bird is fighting for its life with some other sickness and not diagnosed or called for at the moment...c.hert
 

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Prevention is not done on the sick bird. It is done so the birds do not get sick. The sick bird would have to be treated towards it illness.
 

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I agree as well that some DO over medicate. But when someone has a sick bird, and has no intention of taking it to a vet, or can't afford it, or can't find one, then treating it based on the symptoms, is the only option. Many people on here have had lots of experience with the different illnesses that present, and therefore, have a pretty good idea of what to treat with. Letting it go until the bird gets too sick to be able to help it doesn't make sense either. Waiting and doing nothing and you can lose the bird. It has to be treated and waiting makes no sense. Usually the best thing to do would of course be to have it checked by a vet, and treated accordingly, but that just isn't always going to happen. So I guess it's a fine line. One can err too much in either direction. Often times when a bird has an illness or disease, experience will tell you that often with that particular disease, another usually follows, so you treat for that as well to prevent it. But then, treating for one thing, when it turns out to be something else that the bird isn't being treated for, you are losing time, and the bird can die as well. Like I said, it's a fine line. Often times a vet is really the best option. Also, if one has birds, I think it only makes sense to read a lot and learn as much as one can about the different diseases and medications. It helps to have some knowledge. The birds we own depend on us to take good care of them, and to know how to help them when they need it. I am amazed at the number of people who own birds or anything else for that matter, who have absolutely no clue about their needs or illnesses. And have not one medication for the common illnesses that come up. How can one take on the responsibility of a living creature and not try to be somewhat prepared for the common things that come up. Or even know of the common things that come up. That just isn't responsible. These are living, breathing, feeling creatures. And because we own them, we are responsible for them. Guess it is in knowing WHEN to medicate, and when to wait.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Obviously this is a subject that was going to bring out different opinoins. I don't wish to step on anyones toes for what they believe in, but I do wish to express the fact that there is another way that people keep pigeons. My personal way to prevent sickness is to breed birds that don't get sick. Healthy birds from healthy families will produce healthy offspring. I would never consider keeping a bird that needed to be medicated to stay alive, let alone breed from that bird. That weakness is the very traight that will be reproduced. Vaccinating from PMV-1 and Paratyphoid is another matter, especially if birds are raced with others, that should be a responsibility. The use of vitamins, minerals, and natural products like teas, is also conducive to healthy birds. Like I said before, I am not wishing to offend anyone either, just to add a different view and to open a discussion about it. Jim
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Jay3 I totally agree that everyone should take the time to understand about their birds health issues. My not choosing to medicate is not from a lack of knowledge about pigeon illnesses, and I don't think that was what you were implying either, just want to make that clear. We owe it to our birds to understand all we can. Another thing I believe I owe to my healthy pigeons is to not keep weak pigeons, no matter how badly I wish to save them. If I save one at the risk of 50 or my entire flock, am I really doing the right thing? Jim
 

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Obviously this is a subject that was going to bring out different opinoins. I don't wish to step on anyones toes for what they believe in, but I do wish to express the fact that there is another way that people keep pigeons. My personal way to prevent sickness is to breed birds that don't get sick. Healthy birds from healthy families will produce healthy offspring. I would never consider keeping a bird that needed to be medicated to stay alive, let alone breed from that bird. That weakness is the very traight that will be reproduced. Vaccinating from PMV-1 and Paratyphoid is another matter, especially if birds are raced with others, that should be a responsibility. The use of vitamins, minerals, and natural products like teas, is also conducive to healthy birds. Like I said before, I am not wishing to offend anyone either, just to add a different view and to open a discussion about it. Jim
Well, even healthy birds from healthy families can get sick or pick up diseases. For crying out loud, any birds that are stressed for whatever reason can come down with canker. And many birds can pick up worms which can make them very sick and even kill a bird if not treated. Especially when you fly your birds, they have more access to pick up worms. They also have more chance of picking up illness from other birds that are not from your loft. There is no pigeon that is so healthy that they cannot get sick. I do agree that feeding them healthy and the use of ACV and vitamins and all the other things that help them to stay healthy are important. The stronger and healthier the bird to begin with, the better it can fight off sickness and disease.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Do you consider worming a medication? Maybe dusting for lice is a med to then? If that is the case then I guess I do medicate more than I let on. I thought about something that I should have added, I am refering to racing pigeons for the common racer only, birds that their very existence is based on preformance. Fancy pigeon breeding and keeping is a totally different matter. Also one loft races are another matter. As far as healthy birds picking up sicknesses I can only go by what I know and what I have done to get to the point that I am at now. Years ago I used to medicate, I found the more I did the more I needed to. Over the years of learning all I could from the best in our sport my views changed until I developed my own view. I think I have pretty well stated that view, and that view is the very reason I have not had any kind of sick pigeon in many years. Like I said it is my view, it works for me, everyone should have their own. Jim
 

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I guess like a previous thread response said it could be a fine line about knowing when to medicate and when to wait and when a bird is really sick with no symptoms of worms or canker or needing antibiotics and one does this just to prevent something in the future I think this is wrong. These medicines are for specfic symptoms and should be used for those specfic symptoms not because all the birds in the world have show signs of this especially since they are wild...and lets complicate these birds droppings right now by giving these medicines just because thats how its done..There have been a lot of birds (wild ) in my household over the years--some I could save but others I could not but I have never had a bird with canker or worms and I sure hope that I don't put a jinx on myself with this ....I am just saying Canker and Worms yes are out there but I don't think people should assume they have it especially when the bird is really sick unless it is diagnosed...I have a loft of 60 birds and there are certain sicknesses where a bird will not be put in my loft even if the bird gets well because I could not take a chance on the healthy ones getting sick with this "taking a chance" . If my loft gets Canker something is very wrong because birds should have immunity to this if they are healthy birds and something really drastic has overwhelmed and I would be looking for the cause to correct it for good and use my discretion about the birds...and if my birds gets worms I will treat but only if they have worms and also I will have wire floors to help maintain a no worm category here and I will also dust or dip my birds--these things are necessary as well as vitamins, teas, calcuim,clean living conditions, venelation and assorted things that the bird owner gets involved with but there is a fine line to the different philosophies and when a person medicates a bird without no symptoms for the medicine even to give it antibiotics---I cring and feel bad and refuse to read any further in the thread because it just looked like the bird needed a good meal--My opinion only..c.hert
 

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I guess like a previous thread response said it could be a fine line about knowing when to medicate and when to wait and when a bird is really sick with no symptoms of worms or canker or needing antibiotics and one does this just to prevent something in the future I think this is wrong. These medicines are for specfic symptoms and should be used for those specfic symptoms not because all the birds in the world have show signs of this especially since they are wild...and lets complicate these birds droppings right now by giving these medicines just because thats how its done..There have been a lot of birds (wild ) in my household over the years--some I could save but others I could not but I have never had a bird with canker or worms and I sure hope that I don't put a jinx on myself with this ....I am just saying Canker and Worms yes are out there but I don't think people should assume they have it especially when the bird is really sick unless it is diagnosed...I have a loft of 60 birds and there are certain sicknesses where a bird will not be put in my loft even if the bird gets well because I could not take a chance on the healthy ones getting sick with this "taking a chance" . If my loft gets Canker something is very wrong because birds should have immunity to this if they are healthy birds and something really drastic has overwhelmed and I would be looking for the cause to correct it for good and use my discretion about the birds...and if my birds gets worms I will treat but only if they have worms and also I will have wire floors to help maintain a no worm category here and I will also dust or dip my birds--these things are necessary as well as vitamins, teas, calcuim,clean living conditions, venelation and assorted things that the bird owner gets involved with but there is a fine line to the different philosophies and when a person medicates a bird without no symptoms for the medicine even to give it antibiotics---I cring and feel bad and refuse to read any further in the thread because it just looked like the bird needed a good meal--My opinion only..c.hert
You deal more with Sick birds and such. BUT people who raise and compete with there birds See first hand what gos on in threre lofts And other lofts Any body who raises young birds Will see canker one time or the other. A person who breeds pigeons will raise thousands of birds over the years. Some people raise from 100 to 300 each year. Some people keep as much as 600 birds at one time. Having a plan having knowledge of the different pigeon deseases helps. If you have never seen a bird with canker Then one day you will. Loft birds a person sees each and every bird Where wild pigeons you do not see them So many go missing and die know one new why. Just the few rescued birds get saved Yes some people do over med Because they are not knowledgeble. Certion things need to done Each year for prention. Then from there its hit and miss. Some people do not docter there sick birds they just do away with them. And some try to medicate them to save them. It is a person thing
 

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I keep hearing from so many pigeon people that they med med med! WHY, pigeons do not need them in the most part? I know that it is human nature to help, even if we are not the best qualified. Sellers will alway sell what ever meds they can pump, it is written throughout human history. Pigeons are among the strongest most disease free animals on earth. The need for pigeon meds is extreamly far less than that in humans, and we far over med ourselves as a whole. If you have a bird that can not possibly live without meds it is most likley because meds were used throughout the family. When I hear of meds being used as a preventative I cringe. Jim
Well Jim, you sort of answered your own question. In the USA we are very much into the drug culture, both on the street, and in the Dr.'s office. Every little sniffle, and people go to their Dr.'s and expect some pills, as if good health comes out of a bottle. So, when dealing with their pigeons, it should be no surprise, that people expect good health for their pigeons to come out of a bottle also.

Imagine going to your Dr. and saying, " I am going to go on vacation and be around a lot of people. Would you give me some antibotics so that when I get around these people on airplanes and on the tour buses, that I won't catch some illness from them ! " :eek: But, isn't that exactly what we are doing to our pigeons when we give drugs in order to "Prevent" something ?
 

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Prevention As i have mentioned seems to be misunderstood. How many of you treat for PMV. treat for paratyphoid, treat for worms. Treat for CANKER, treat for POX As a program of health. Then thats prevention. THOSE that do not Well PMV in your loft could destroy most all your birds. These things are done not only to keep your birds safe BUt the birds that you race aginst safe. POX it mostly attacks youngbirds Some areas more then others. So it is not a real must BUT it saves a problem Antibiotics Well Thats different it should be given when needed And now days stool samples can tell you problems in the loft 2 times a year you can send them off for a small price to find hidden issues. IF you raise pigeons you have to have an idea for a solid program. ANYBODY whos says there never give there birds anything. Well there not a very good breeder or representative of the sport. Some clubs go to all members lofts to insure PMV vaccines are being done.
 

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I disagree with you re lee good bird people vaccinate their pigeons "Yes" mine are vaccinated so when I take them to shows if I decide too but I have not bred in 2 years they are somewhat protected and I dip them all in the spring time for bugs and keep a keen eye on things to make sure things are right in the loft but preventive antibiotics and canker medicine when not needed and worming when not needed these are medicines I have not used in 10 years and my loft is healthy for diseases and I don't give my loft anything other than proper vaccines and dips and calcuim,vitamins,teas, and organic things--nothing--no antibiotics---no canker---no worming---because I never had to---if I need it I will give it but I never had to---and if I have to then I really see something wrong with the loft management process...You write: "ANYBODY who says they never give there birds anything. Well their not a very good breeder or representive of the sport." I truely believe I am a good representive of this sport whether it be show or beginning racing maybe next year and I know 2 or 3 racing people they maintain large lofts as well 60 or 70 birds and they don't have any problem with these things because they keep an everyday handle on their birds condition and if I should find a sick bird--one that seems off--I will pull it immediately out of the loft: sicknesses like prolapse: binding: foreign objects:gout:hurt foot:hurt wing:egg yolk periontitis;tumors:--3 birds mysteriously dying and test done nothing could be found..these are the things I find but as far as sicknesses from the above---not one in 10 years of loft management..I am a good representive of this hobby and will continue to be and when I enter it as a sport if I do so I will also keep healthy birds and if I can't then I don't want to be in the sport...c.hert
 

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I think the meds in question are antibiotics, they should not be used as a preventative, as oneday they may not even work... vaccinations are different, they do protect for a period of time. using the antibiotic for a sick bird can and should be done on a bird by bird basis and use the right med for what ever ailment he is having. it's really pretty simple and common sense... as far as dewormers go, you can get fecal test done and treat if necessary, or treat 2x a year and switch types so the parasites do not become immune.
 

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I disagree with you re lee good bird people vaccinate their pigeons "Yes" mine are vaccinated so when I take them to shows if I decide too but I have not bred in 2 years they are somewhat protected and I dip them all in the spring time for bugs and keep a keen eye on things to make sure things are right in the loft but preventive antibiotics and canker medicine when not needed and worming when not needed these are medicines I have not used in 10 years and my loft is healthy for diseases and I don't give my loft anything other than proper vaccines and dips and calcuim,vitamins,teas, and organic things--nothing--no antibiotics---no canker---no worming---because I never had to---if I need it I will give it but I never had to---and if I have to then I really see something wrong with the loft management process...You write: "ANYBODY who says they never give there birds anything. Well their not a very good breeder or representive of the sport." I truely believe I am a good representive of this sport whether it be show or beginning racing maybe next year and I know 2 or 3 racing people they maintain large lofts as well 60 or 70 birds and they don't have any problem with these things because they keep an everyday handle on their birds condition and if I should find a sick bird--one that seems off--I will pull it immediately out of the loft: sicknesses like prolapse: binding: foreign objects:gout:hurt foot:hurt wing:egg yolk periontitis;tumors:--3 birds mysteriously dying and test done nothing could be found..these are the things I find but as far as sicknesses from the above---not one in 10 years of loft management..I am a good representive of this hobby and will continue to be and when I enter it as a sport if I do so I will also keep healthy birds and if I can't then I don't want to be in the sport...c.hert
HAVE you EVER raced Have you ever showed have you ever competed with your birds What breed type or types do you keep. Back yard bird do not get outside exposer as competing birds do. Antibiotics is what you are hung up on. Im not talking that Im talking proper preventiuon. ANd Yes worming and canker. You do not breed so you see less canker, Now if you bred more you would see canker NOT all the time but it would show its face. Canker is around more during breeding season. Never had 1 PMV bird at my loft or on my property Did treat for it. Maybe that was why I never had a bird get it. Bred pigeons over 40 years Never abused antibiotics BUT did use when needed. But some did not they just removed any sick birds and sent them to bird heaven. And today many do that they remove anybird that gets sick. Thats the truth in this hobby And they say they do not have time to deal with sick birds if its weak then its gone.
 

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No I have never raced but I know some racers and I do have a loft of 60 birds: Mookee"s and Rollers and one racer and those small birds-can't get the name right now--and 14 wild birds that can't be released for one reason or another and a 15th will join them and I have never had canker or worms and I vaccinate all my birds including the wild ones and every bird has been at one time or another in my house for a visit for small things-washing the feet--or off somehow--and when they are declared healthy back to the loft they go and I work hard with my loft and thats how I do it. I have entered birds in competition--one time---lost---and thats all I really can say---but I do know racers where they maintained their lofts without no canker or worms or antibiotics for years and there birds stayed very healthy. Every bird I get I keep out of the loft until I get a through examination on that bird and observe it for at least 2 or 3 weeks and I am just really careful--as careful as I can be---who knows maybe someday I will have a problem and I will have to use these medicines wormers or canker but I will not use them for a preventive and will only use them when I have too with diagnosis for the right kind---someone else wrote something like this: Can you imagine us all going to get preventive medicine when we take a trip or something because we might catch something or other ( not vaccines here ) but antibiotics, wormers, canker, before the bird even shows a symptoms of having this---these medicines are rough and they do have side effects and how is it for you to figure out whats wrong with a bird if you just pump it full of three or four preventives medicines at once----there was a thread on pigeon talk where a person gave a 5 day old baby worm and canker medicine with no worm or canker symptoms and the parents did not have it and this is what I am talking for too many people reach for medicines first before they have a good diagnosis and with all different chemicals in the birds body they don't give them a chance to be diagnosed and I do realize there are some cases where you need to--I"m flexible--and there is a thin line between decisions--but I also try to know the reason why if any and because the majority of birds have this when they come here --just routeinely give it to them----this I am against---and a lot of birds have been through my house getting treatment for one thing to another---all kinds----and I have yet to see canker or worms on any of them----I know it out there---be observant---but don't take it as a matter of fact to prevent something that they might not never get.....Thank you for your response and no I have never raced but that does not disqualify for having a response to the question of too much medicine being proscribed and used and on a personal note I have a girlfriend who takes everything new on the market (vitamins etc etc) and she is in perfect health but don't you think I complain about that too--30 to 40 pills aday--to each its own thats what I say but I sure have opinions especially about my loft and how I see it and others have theirs as well and I respect that....But when I read about very sick birds getting three or four medicines at a time not being diagnosed proper I cringe and now I will no longer read those threads and thats just how I feel....c.hert
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
re lee I am not sure what the point you are trying to make by asking about racing or showing other than exposier to other birds. I am sure that is the point other than you just pointing out that you do show and race. That's good stuff! I race as well, no canker or sickness at all, and I do not treat for it in a loft of over 200 pigeons from 7 different countries. I am glad you do though, I enjoy beating people like you in the races just as much as the person selling meds to you likes the business. :) Jim
 

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re lee I am not sure what the point you are trying to make by asking about racing or showing other than exposier to other birds. I am sure that is the point other than you just pointing out that you do show and race. That's good stuff! I race as well, no canker or sickness at all, and I do not treat for it in a loft of over 200 pigeons from 7 different countries. I am glad you do though, I enjoy beating people like you in the races just as much as the person selling meds to you likes the business. :) Jim
I no longer have any birds at all. BUT hey If I did Are you sure you could beat me. I did not have sick birds either. BUT did treat for canker On the breeder birds. DID not give whole loft treatment just breeders before breeding season. NOW tell the truth do do you PMV your birds DO you worm your birds What is your program other then killing your sick and weak birds.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
If you read back a few posts on this suject you will read that I think it is a responsibility to vaccinate for PMV and I do treat for worms. I never said anything about killing sick or weak birds because I do not. I believe what I said was I strive to get and breed from healthy birds to have healthy young. As far as being sure, guess we will never know because you no longer race. Thank you for staying involved with pigeons! Jim
 
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