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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I realize that I am making way too many topics on dear old Moody, and that this forum is for sick pigeons and not geese, but I just thought this forum might get a bit more attention than the forum 'other pet birds'. I think Moody has vent gleet. She is showing all of the signs, though I'm not too sure about the crop problems, but she even has the waxy black stuff on her vent. I had been wondering about that for a while, and vent gleet would make so much sense. She has blood in her stool also, and that may be part of this, or due to a worm infestation, Giardia or even dietary problems. That will be addressed as well. Today we're picking up some good, wholesome foods and some gravel to be soaked in bleach water and rinsed well over the next few days, which should help with her digestion of corn.

However, vent gleet would explain the foul-smelling, watery droppings, lightweight, swollen, reddened vent and black things around and on it. Therefore, as Nystatin is apparently not damaging even if she doesn't have vent gleet, I wanted to know exactly how much I should be giving her to treat vent gleet. I read somewhere that, for chickens, 1 ml/350 grams, twice per day for 5 days is what's called for, but I'm not sure if that applies to geese as well.

Anyway...

Sorry for so many posts, questions, wrong diagnostics, worries, concerns and thoughts that I've been having lately... I'm just really eager to treat Moody.

Thank you so much, yet again,
Vasp
 

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300,000 IU (International Units) per kilogram of bird, twice daily, for Anseriformes.

What kind of Nystatin do you have?

Pidgey
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
So, ...how exactly do I measure IUs? Sort of inexperienced in that matter.
What about mLs? That would be much easier for me.

I don't have Nystatin right now. Going to pick some up. What different types are there and what should I get? What are the differences?

Vasp
 

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Incidentally, the technical name for that is: Cloacitis.

Here's a blurb from AVIAN MEDICINE: PRINCIPLES AND APPLICATION, page 510:

"A sporadically occurring, chronic inflammatory process of the cloaca with a very offensive odor, commonly known as “vent gleet,” may occur in laying
hens and occasionally in males. A yellow diphtheritic membrane may form on the mucosal surface, and urates and inflammatory exudate contaminate the
skin and feathers around the vent. The cause is unknown. Treatment consists of cleaning the area and applying a local antibiotic ointment."

"A similar condition has been reported in ducks. Scarring, which reduces the elasticity and diameter of the cloaca and may prevent egg laying and, in extreme cases, defecation, is a complication of cloacitis."

Pidgey
 

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Well, I guess there's no need as that link gives the information.

Can you get your vet to take a cloacal swab and look at it under a microscope? I probably oughta' go read the other Moody threads, huh?

Pidgey
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Yeah, it would be nice if you could. We put her on Metronidazole for what we suspected might have been Giardia because of the blood in her poop, and believe it or not it did cause the blood to disappear for a few days, the smell to lessen and the consistency to get better. But her vent is still covered in little waxy, black lumps of something. They also seem to be 'bleeding' or something like that. She poops blood only when she's in stress, but it seems there is always blood on/in her vent.

The blood is bright red, signaling that it is near the end of the intestine, perhaps just around the cloaca or in the ceca, and I've heard that Coccidiosis attacks the ceca. I thought Cocci could be a problem. It might. We sent a fecal sample to the lab, but there were no worms or anything that they found. It was a bit of an old sample, though, collected at about 12PM but sent off that evening. That might be why nothing showed up, so we'll do another fecal test. She was put on Metronidazole just because the vet thought she might have Giardia.

The blood has come back, though, and is often covering her whole vent and staining the feathers around it. Her vent looks to be in terrible condition. Red, dirty and covered with what looks like scar tissue, almost. Her feathers are also bad quality. She's going through a molt now, though, and started when the end of her treatment of Metronidazole approached.

She has gained a pound or two after her treatment. The foul-smelling diarrhea is back. So is the blood, only there's more of it. She eats and drinks happily, however. She is not on grit, and it has been suggested that the lack of grit and the fact that she eats rolled corn with rather jagged edges is the cause of, or at least contributes, to the blood in her stool.

Could it be possible for her to have vent gleet, Giardia and just have the desperate requirement for grit in her diet? She is not a laying bird, and is only 7 months old, yet she has the symptoms of vent gleet.

She is rather underweight, being an embden at only 14.5 or so pounds rather than 20 or so, but has been on a rather low protein diet all her life (though not terribly low; 15-17% protein and no less). She eats a 17% layer diet with rolled corn and veggies, occasionally some fruits.

She has had this smelly diarrhea for months, but just started having this bloody poop in the last 2 1/2-3 1/2 weeks, worsening as time progressed. She had some episodes of bloody stool earlier in life, but not this badly and only after a diet change. She has also had rare days every few months where she refuses to eat, shakes and has poor balance. But that only lasts a little while, and she returns to normal behavior in due time.

She is very alert and seems to be very bothered when anything is applied to her vent. Needless to say, it is a very sensitive spot for her.
 

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Metronidazole does some interesting things. Besides being an antiprotozoal against Giardia, Trichomonads, and those guys (but not Coccidia, which is also a protozoa), it also moderates cell-mediated immune responses in the large intestine. They mention that a little bit here:

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/metronidazole.html

So, what that might mean is that when you gave that medication to Moody, it may have temporarily caused her body not to fight whatever it was fighting quite so hard. That might be why it seemed to go away for awhile. Or not, there's no way for me to be sure.

So, your vet did a fecal float, huh? Maybe a fecal smear or cloacal swab might be more enlightening.

Pidgey
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
Yeah, that might be it. Either way, there is certainly something wrong with her. It might be that she had Giardia and it helped a bit, but something else was going on as well. See, the blood returned near the end of the treatment (7 days, 250mg a day) but the smell was gone. Now, 2 days after the end of her treatment, the smell is back in full force. Of course, it's a smell that could knock you down. But the blood is still here, as are the waxy black things. Would you say she has vent gleet because of the presence of the smelly diarrhea and black, waxy lumps on her vent? Like I said, they look like scars.

Also, do you think it likely that the bleeding would be caused by the rolled corn's jagged edges if she doesn't have grit, or would that be a medical problem as well, like Giardia?

If so, she'd have to have vent gleet and Giardia or something that has all of their symptoms combined...

It's quite hard to get a diagnosis with such universal symptoms.

Regards,
Vasp

PS: I'm not sure what the vet did with the last sample. It was sent off, and they said they saw no eggs or parasites or protozoa or anything like that. At all. But that sample was one of her better samples. One that was less liquidy, less mucusy and with no blood. This time I'm going to give her an absolutely horrendously smelling, bloody, mucusy sample and see if she finds anything. And it will be fresh. As fresh as I can get it.
 

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If it had been a Clostridium (the same family that gave us Tetanus, Gas-Gangrene, and Botulism, by the way), the Metronidazole should have gotten it although I don't know how long the therapy should be continued.

In the "vent gleet", it talks about a diphtheritic membrane and some exudate that would be mildly reminiscent of canker. The black areas that you're describing with the frank blood make one think more of Carcinomas or something like that. Perhaps this bird has Hypovitaminosis A and/or D. Do you give her any of that stuff?

Pidgey
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
...Did I give her any of what? She's only 7 months old and has had nothing but her food, water, some probiotics, and grass all her life. Fruits and vegetables, but not in excess. Grains, but not in excess. She's very picky. She flinches at the taste of anything new.

She has been outside before and has had some limited excess to some old, still water. It had been outside for quite a long time. She also, of course, had access to grass. This problem has been going on for a long time. It's not so severe as it is chronic. But the blood is rather new.

I really have no idea what she has. I wish I had a clear way of finding a diagnosis.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
No, she hasn't had any medicated feed, or vitamins aside from in her natural food sources, like veggies and fruits.

Yet again, not in excess.

So...

I'm sending a fresher fecal to the lab on Tuesday or Wednesday. I'm going to get a prescription for nystatin for her on Monday, as it's harmless and we should give it a try, as her symptoms do match up with vent gleet. The fecal should show if she has a chronic case of Coccidiosis, which is a possibility. If all else fails, I'll send in yet another fecal and get a bacterial swab done.

If that fails, we're off to the 3 hour away avian school of medicine and to someone who is possibly the best avian vet in the prairies, where we, unfortunately, reside. There, more things can be done, including an X-Ray, which can show if perhaps she has ingested something... Which I'm not sure if much of a possibility, as anything heavy metal would cause completely different symptoms, but it's, yet again, a possibility.

Going to keep her on her probiotics, and offering some sand and gravel.

Sigh.

Well, I hope we figure this out...



Vasp
 

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Vasp,

Please do not worry about posting too much. You are obviously worried about your little Moody and doing what is BEST for her by exhausting every resource you can get, and that is the way it should be.

I certainly hope her health issues are resolved.

Sending a little prayer and good thoughts out to her.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Thank you, Trees Gray. :) I really do care for Moody a great deal and want the best for her in every way possible. I really hope a better diet, another fecal test and a round of Nystatin will help.

Kind thanks,
Vasp
 
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