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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Just curious- Have seen some ads that say pedigrees can be provided for a fee, or won't be provided, however if you race them and you have one that turns out good we can work something out or I can then get the pedigree to you. Just don't understand it. With foxhounds you enroll the litter of pups then a person that buys the pup can register the pup with the litter enrollement number- either the litter gets registered or not but you never pay extra for the litter enrollment number. Don't understand the logic of it at all. Sometimes you get folks that are lazy and have to bug them to enroll thier litter of pups until they do or they track down an older hounds papers after you hounding them with phone calls ,but to deliberately hold them back or to charge more to send them doesn't sit right on the surface of it. What am I missing? Thanks Keystonepaul
 

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I guess it's both from laziness and money. People want pedigrees, so chances are, they're going to pay the extra 10 or so dollars to get it. Others who don't want it, save the breeder the hassle of typing/writing up a pedigree for the bird.
 

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I wouldn't deal with anyone who would not include the pedigree, and if they wanted an extra fee, I would tell them adios.
 

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It depends on the person. I do have seen people who want to send there birds out for others to test them and will not give the pedigree to them until the bird has flown the young bird season. It doesn't matter if it gets lost, what they are looking for is results. But at the end of the season if the birds are still around the breeder will send the pedigrees free at no charge. This is how they test their birds. Reason for not sending the pedigree along with the bird is because the handler or tester will decide to keep the bird based on the birds pedigree and might lie that the bird is lost during training so they can breed off the bird.

But when you mention that peds provided for additional cost, its just about money. Honestly dealing with someone like that I would stay away from. It wouldn't matter though if you know the person very well.
 

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Ah, I forgot about that! That's true. Many people will stock birds if they learn what goodies hide in their pedigree, without even flying it first. I would do the same if I sent young birds to people to test, who I didn't know well enough to trust that they would fly them no matter what. I wouldn't charge them extra for a piece of paper though. I'd just make the deal with them that if it is still there after the races, they get the ped.
 

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It depends on the person. I do have seen people who want to send there birds out for others to test them and will not give the pedigree to them until the bird has flown the young bird season. It doesn't matter if it gets lost, what they are looking for is results. But at the end of the season if the birds are still around the breeder will send the pedigrees free at no charge. This is how they test their birds. Reason for not sending the pedigree along with the bird is because the handler or tester will decide to keep the bird based on the birds pedigree and might lie that the bird is lost during training so they can breed off the bird.

But when you mention that peds provided for additional cost, its just about money. Honestly dealing with someone like that I would stay away from. It wouldn't matter though if you know the person very well.
I do the same thing when I am sending birds out to be tested. I send out the peds after the race season for FREE theres no use in having a pedigree for a bird you don't have after the season. But its just me. Now if I sell a bird I always include the ped with the bird.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Hi folks, I understand that if you send out test birds. I pay for shipping and we see how the birds make out, discuss peds, etc. BUT if I pay for a bird or a kit of young birds would everyone agree that if you have a pedigree it should be sent? One person stated that they wanted to be sure that you would race them and not move them into the breeding loft because of thier pedigree for fear of losing them during training/racing. I understand that thought as well but what a person does with a bird, a car, a house, etc after they buy it is what they do with it- they've bought it- it's now theirs. You don't sell a car but keep the title. Both the buyer and seller take a leap of faith so to speak that we are buying what the seller says we are and that the buyer intends to utilize the birds in the way he states. It was aggravating to see just how many times pedigrees that were available were discussed as a seperate item.(or maybe the few I saw just stick out- but still) It's also very interesting talking to folks about pigeons. There sure are a wide variety of individuals, attitudes, motivations, approaches, etc from forthright, pure and honest to guarded, hesitently helpful, to decietful and manipulative. That part of it has been as fascinating (and thought provoking) as my actual learning about the pigeons themselves. Thanks much folks. Keystonepaul
 

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to answer your questions. Sometimes a seller will sell a kit of young birds for cheap price is because the deal in itself is already too good and for them to add pedigrees along with the birds , they think that the buyer in the end will have a better chance of profit. For example, instead of selling a kit, if they were to sell each birds individually and were to pedigree the bird, and lets say it's a grandson of surebet. The chances of the bird being bought with that pedigree is most likely going to be worth more but also might be harder to sell. Now lets say he sold a kit of 4 and there were 2 grandkids of surebet and 2 grandkids 0f 699 and the price was 400 for the kit and the flyer has given his word they are off good stuff and explained the lineage, then its based on trust. But think about this as well, if he pedigreed them for the price of 400 for all for, the buyer can be able to turn it around and sell one or two birds and break even , and the other 2 birds would be free.

Also with the concept of after the bird is bought its your to do what you want with it, thats how the seller controls the situation with the pedigree to ensure the bird is tested and flown. In the breeders view, they would want to see results of the breeding because it might be a different mating from a super cock. If you're going to buy a bird and going to stock it, I think you must let the seller know what your looking for.

That is why, when buying birds you would have to be careful on who you trust and how the deal works.
 

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to answer your questions. Sometimes a seller will sell a kit of young birds for cheap price is because the deal in itself is already too good and for them to add pedigrees along with the birds , they think that the buyer in the end will have a better chance of profit. For example, instead of selling a kit, if they were to sell each birds individually and were to pedigree the bird, and lets say it's a grandson of surebet. The chances of the bird being bought with that pedigree is most likely going to be worth more but also might be harder to sell. Now lets say he sold a kit of 4 and there were 2 grandkids of surebet and 2 grandkids 0f 699 and the price was 400 for the kit and the flyer has given his word they are off good stuff and explained the lineage, then its based on trust. But think about this as well, if he pedigreed them for the price of 400 for all for, the buyer can be able to turn it around and sell one or two birds and break even , and the other 2 birds would be free.

Also with the concept of after the bird is bought its your to do what you want with it, thats how the seller controls the situation with the pedigree to ensure the bird is tested and flown. In the breeders view, they would want to see results of the breeding because it might be a different mating from a super cock. If you're going to buy a bird and going to stock it, I think you must let the seller know what your looking for.

That is why, when buying birds you would have to be careful on who you trust and how the deal works.
As for testing, that is an arranged agreement between two parties. Don't like the agreement don't test the birds. As for a sell, why would a seller care if the bird is raced or used for breeding? If the seller needs to see the results, keep the bird and race it. As for the pedigree, it is either part of the price or not. Want it, pay for it. Just keep in mind pedigree papers come from the guy you bought the bird from. If you trust him then the papers are good. If not. the pedigree isn't worth the paper it is printed on. All my birds came from SureBet, hang on while I doctor the papers LOL.

Most people on this forum seem to care about their sport and the birds. Outside this forum are people who seem to care more about the dollar. Just know who you are dealing with and what you are really wanting. Research before you spend.
 

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Or. The guy just wants to make fake peds and say his foundation birds bred that bird even though it wasnt.

Wouldnt you rather have a kit of 10 with pedigree's, know the true linage of the bird that you are testing?

699 sucked Ludos sucked Phantom sucked only good ones were "none marketed" birds?

Not for a Seller 2 send you the birds and tell you after. Thats Pretty Weak!!! IMO
 

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I'm sure there's lot of people like that out there. If I were to ever sell kits of young birds, they'll more than likely come with pedigrees, at least simple ones. But for right now, I just give some birds to people I know pretty good, in which it doesn't even matter if I give them a ped from the start cause I know they'll race the birds if they say they will :p Besides, I doubt I'll be selling any kits until I know I've got some good breeders, so that I don't have to fear giving pedigrees :rolleyes: Cause you know, if a group of birds do badly for someone, it can easily get around the 'grapevine' that their parents are no good, giving your birds a crappy reputation. That may be another reason people don't give pedigrees to birds until they've proven they're good enough to spread the name :rolleyes:
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
It's been an interesting education for sure. I really didn't think about peds since they really have no official sanction or registration- just what the breeder documents of his own accord, until I began to see that some folks offering birds for sale were also talking about withholding pedigrees or offering them for additional costs. It gets one thinking. I just want good birds, but it nice to know where they came from. I've read more about Ludos, Jansens, Meuelemanns, Ganus, etc. etc. in the past month. When you look at some of the theories on breeding the lineage of a bird is often an intergeral part of decisions related to breeding for better or for worse. I like what BigT stated in another post a while back about colored birds or winning birds and what Mr. Smith mentioned about being careful about falling in love with the lore of a "family" of birds as oppossed to judging an individual bird on it's race performance and performance of it's offspring, etc and desiring it for those reasons. Thanks all good food for thought for sure. Keystonepaul
 

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It's been an interesting education for sure. I really didn't think about peds since they really have no official sanction or registration- just what the breeder documents of his own accord, until I began to see that some folks offering birds for sale were also talking about withholding pedigrees or offering them for additional costs. It gets one thinking. I just want good birds, but it nice to know where they came from. I've read more about Ludos, Jansens, Meuelemanns, Ganus, etc. etc. in the past month. When you look at some of the theories on breeding the lineage of a bird is often an intergeral part of decisions related to breeding for better or for worse. I like what BigT stated in another post a while back about colored birds or winning birds and what Mr. Smith mentioned about being careful about falling in love with the lore of a "family" of birds as oppossed to judging an individual bird on it's race performance and performance of it's offspring, etc and desiring it for those reasons. Thanks all good food for thought for sure. Keystonepaul
Just to add my two cents. A couple of YB seasons ago, I announced a "National Testing" program. For less then my cost to produce, I shipped fanciers an 8 bird kit. I did not supply pedigrees. The reason from my perspective was quite simple, I wanted to see how these particular birds performed in different lofts, all around the USA. Very similar to sending birds to various One Loft events around the country. I never bought into the concept of "Horses for the Courses" idea.

If someone wants to purchase a fully documented bird from me, that is fine, it means that they own the bird and if they later sell it on an auction site, or later sell birds as "Best of SFL" etc...that IMHO, is what they are paying for.

I know, as sure as I am sitting here, if I had printed out pedigree documentation....at some point, some of them would have made it onto the market, with my loft name attached to them. At 30 some days of age, it's not really possible IMHO, to know for sure, what this bird will really turn into, six months or a year down the road. Maybe it was never raced, maybe it turned out to be an example of a poor mating....maybe had I kept it, I would never have later sold it, because it simply was not up to our standards. Once the breeding documentation is shipped with a kit, any control over such things is completely gone.

As a result, of not getting the feed back we had hoped to get from this National Testing program, we discontinued the practice. Now, if a bird is sold, it has been flown locally or in a One Loft event. The bird has already proven that it is at least a homing pigeon.

As Mr. T said, if you don't like the arrangement, then don't participate. When I first got back into racing, had a Mike Ganus or a Ludo Claessen offered me say an 8 bird YB kit for..... just say less then $100 each, but the deal was I was to race them, and if I came up with some winners out of the bunch, then we can discuss buying the pedigree, to me, that might have been a worthwhile option I would have considered. Instead I purchased a YB kit, with full documentation, and a five figure price tag.

I am sure the price you paid, or were offered, reflected the fact, that you were paying for undocumented, and unproven birds. Personally, to me the most important thing, is the quality of the birds you actually get, and what they were able to do in the races. I am much more interested in obtaining a world class pigeon with all the right stuff, then I am obtaining a very typical pigeon, with world class breeding documents...but that is me.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Mr. Smith, thanks, there is a lot of information in your post. Can't even fathom 5 figures for the forseeable future as my 6 year old's college fund needs more stocking than my breeding pen. enjoy reading your posts and learning from them. Enjoyed the joy that came through in your posts about your most recent Ludo auction purchase. I think it brought a smile to many of our faces. Really do understand that folks from time to time want to do some testing and that's a bit different than an out right purchase. Also understand that if someone offers you some birds at pennies on the dollar with the understanding that you'll race them that that's a different deal entirely as well, and of course that any deal your not comfortable with is a deal that you can walk away from. Geuss I'll continue to do a lot of looking and occassionally a purchase or two. Thanks much, Keystonepaul
 

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Personally, I would not accept a bird into my loft that I had purchased if I did not know its pedigree, what it was off of, or the race results of the family. Not all my birds have pedigrees, but I do know much info about each and every one. My theory is that if someone wants me to test their birds, that they are still theirs. If I send them a dime, they are mine and I would want a pedigree.

Now as Warren was saying that he wants the birds tested before he sends the peds. That was the up front deal he made with the fliers and that is understandable. I have experienced sending birds to be tested with pedigrees and the birds not being flown. So maybe I will rethink my policy. But personally, I like to see what the bird is down from.

Randy
 

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All the birds I have luck breeding from have never had pedigrees. I have lots of pedigrees and the birds have yet to produce even one bird that placed in even the top ten. Now I knew my unped. birds were good birds and after I had luck with them and I contacted the original owners and most then gave me peds on the birds or at least told me what the birds were from so I could make one. I will be pairing 10 new pairs this year for breeding my cream of the crop next year and only have a ped on 2 of the 20 right now but that might change after I fly them next year. :D Oh ya one more thing all 20 of these new birds have been top racers and I wil bet alot of those pedigreed birds might pump some eggs after next year. :D
 

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Or. The guy just wants to make fake peds and say his foundation birds bred that bird even though it wasnt.

Wouldnt you rather have a kit of 10 with pedigree's, know the true linage of the bird that you are testing?

699 sucked Ludos sucked Phantom sucked only good ones were "none marketed" birds?

Not for a Seller 2 send you the birds and tell you after. Thats Pretty Weak!!! IMO
Everyone is entitled to their own view. I would simply like to point out, that I shared on this site a project which was advertised in RPD, where I did not provide pedigrees. Some of the details are now gone, since at the start of the thread, I linked back to a page on my web site, which is no longer there.

But, here was the original thread link : http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f8/sm...sting-18127-4.html?highlight=national+testing

Somewhere in that thread was this post of mine : http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=163516&postcount=11 where I share my reasons for sending undocumented birds.

As a result of that project, I sold out every YB we could produce, and some people even opted to wait until the following year.

Here, was a separate link, which was started by a member on this site, who shared his experience with his SFL YB kit. His statements seem to indicate, that he was happy with the project, and he eventually earned himself some pedigrees, and a few breeders to boot, with complete documentation.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f14/sfl-test-kit-updates-here-19167-6.html?highlight=national+testing


I was attempting to try something "out side the box" and people were free to be part of this project, or not to. I didn't twist anyone's arms...in fact I ended up turning people away. I have no idea if the party, of which this thread was started about, is a good deal or not. But, at least in the case of A Smith and Quiet Time Loft, I don't think he felt it was "Pretty Weak".....:rolleyes:

You see, the season or so before we conducted this Nationally advertised event, I had a case where an employee of the firm that Lew (my loft manager) and I own and operate, got into pigeons and in a moment of weakness, I gifted him a pair of red Ludo's, complete with pedigrees. Within a week, I got a call from a fellow in New York, who had just purchased the pair and had called to tell me how impressed he was with them. So, I shared this little bit of information with Lew, who casually asked the employee how the pair of reds were doing....and he mumbled something about "They died". Apparently, he wasted no time in driving to New York, and sold them for a few week's pay. It reinforced in my mine, that "gift" birds are almost never valued the same as birds you must part with hard earned money. And this new pigeon fancier learned that our firm will not tolerate dishonesty, as he was fired the next day.

So, in at least our case, we were not going to make the same mistake again.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Mr. Smith, I was over to Allen's (Quiet time loft) last month. He talked pigeons so long that my wife figured I was kidnapped. I couldn't take in enough. He was very accommodating and a credit and asset to the sport of racing pigeons. He did make it a point to point out several of the birds from you or offspring of those he got from you and perked up a bit when mentioning them. Warren, in Allen's case they were birds well placed, as you stated. Keystonepaul
 
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