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Discussion Starter #1
Hello,

Its been more than 12 hours since having a Pigeon at the Balcony of our apartment in Bangalore. He looks healthy, first when I saw he was pooping and tried to fly off seeing me but could move much and is twisting head head significantly and sometimes run in circles, try to hit his head on the ground by twisting it completely upside down (scary when he does that). Initially when I saw him, felt his neck has got twisted somehow (though no sign of injury). He gets very anxious when I try to go close to him or feed him. I have tried to protect him by covering the place with cart, etc but fear he is sinking and feeling very cold due to continuous cold breeze. Its late night in India right now, I hope that I get some help in taking care of him.

I only see 2 poops of him both whitish green and liquid. So he definitely seems to have diarrhea and have hardly eaten or drank anything today (am not sure how much they eat and the best thing to feed them). Also, need help in understanding how to feed him as he has drank some water off spoon (hardly 2ml or so). I had mixed the water with a pinch of salt, sugar and few drops of vitamins syrup. Tried feeding small raw rice grains, but has hardly eaten any.

As read on this forum and across the Internet, I fear he has PMV or Paratyphoid. I would like to get as much guidelines as possible based on the symptoms and may seek help from a reputed veterinarian if I could (I do not know any here and need to ensure that I seek help from a specialist). My wife is a Homoeopath and hence can seek some medical advice especially on homoeo medicines.

Would really appreciate timely advice to try saving the pigeon, thank you. Also, need as much advice in feeding him the right stuff and quantity. Should I try syring without needle to try feeding? How do I feed grains? Or should I feed some semi-liquid stuff?
 

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Its definatly either paratyphoid or PMV, That sounds like how my birds were when they got paratyphoid. Scary to see, with twisted heads and lack of motor control. My birds couldnt fly then too. But u should wait until someone with more expirience posts their opinion for what to do about it.
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
Here is an excellent post on both (pmv & paratyphoid) and the difference. Paratyphoid is treated with antibiotics, whereas with PMV, you can give supportive care, like homeopathy/nutrition.

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showpost.php?p=506222&postcount=1

CLICK on upper right thread title to get the full thread.
Thanks for the great link. I have shifted the pigeon inside a wooden box with soft flooring. It seems much calmer now and I have personally fed about 4 teaspoons of water mixed with salt, sugar, multivitamin syrup and a liver tonic (few drops each) in about 15ml water. He doesn't like warm water or food so am giving normal temperature content. I am checking on regularly and monitoring the symptoms.

As of now, the symptoms are as indicated for the below homeo medicine:
"Belladonna can be used for birds that are restless with convulsive movement and jerking limbs. 2 pilules twice a day."

I may shift him to a carton box instead as the wood one has raw wood which can damage the wings during the clockwise circular movement he makes ones in a while, however afraid that he may climb up and run away to some dangerous places like bathroom, under the bed, etc.

Once again thank you all for the great support. Never thought there would be a dedicated forum for Pigeon care. Keep up the good work.
 

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If you are seeing bright green poop, it could be the bird isn't eating enough on his own and may need to be hand fed.

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You can hand feed defrosted peas. Run some hot water over them until they are defrosted and slightly warmed. Put the bird on your lap and hold it next to your body. If it helps because you are having a hard time handling the pigeon, you can wrap a towel around it or put it in the sleeve of a tee shirt, with the head out the wrist. This method confines the pigeon without hurting him and makes it easier to handle. Gently open the beak and pop a pea at the back of the mouth and over the throat. It gets easier and faster, with practice, for both you and the bird.
You will need to feed 30-50 per feeding [depending on the size of the pigeon] and every time the crop empties until you know the pigeon is eating on his own.
 

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Thank you for rescuing this poor pigeon - you are obviously a very kind and caring person.

He'll benefit from some direct heat under him- a heating pad set on low, or a cloth wrapped hot water bottle.

You can use fresh peas if frozen are not available in India. You can also use dried dog food, which you can soak in water and when it expands, you can feed it to the pigeon in the same way, but the peas are easier to feed. Both peas and soaked dog food contain enough moisture to keep the bird hydrated, although birds with PMV tend to drink and eliminate lot of water because the virus affects the kidneys.

Can you examine the bird's leg and wing joints and see if you can feel any swelling in any of them. I know it can be hard to say what's normal if you've never done this, but at least check if they feel the same on each side. If the bird has parathyphoid, you'll need to start antibiotics as soon as possible. Baytril (enrofloxacin) - same as human ciprofloxacin is the best one for that.

It's good you've changed the box. A padded box /cage would be best to avoid the bird hurting itself. A narrow water dish - no more that 2" across will also reduce the risk of him accidentally drowning since he has poor motor control.
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
Thanks everyone for the kind advice. Pigeon is reasonably safe now and it seems to be a rather minor infection of PMV instead of paratyphoid. I still can't say for sure if its not paratyphoid. Let me know more on how to detect.

I have taken few videos of the poop and him inside the wooden box (shifted back again today as the wild movements have stopped now and he is reasonably comfortable and less anxious). He comes easily on my hands and is very comfortable in my presence and moves in circles whenever he sees me (seems happy sign to me). I feed raw rice by hand and he is able to pick it well and day before ate about 2 to 3 fistful of rice. I do have frozen peas but am bit skeptical if I can force feed him due to the size of peas. But as the pigeon is no more drowsy or feeling weak (except for the circular movement and twisted head - he usually keep it down but can bring it up to stab the crop in my hand or a bowl). He do drink atleast 15 to 20ml of water every day from my hand and might be drinking more otherwise. I try to hold him and roam covering him with both my hands while he usually keep the face down (I sometimes turn him upside down so the head is on top to regularize blood circulation).

His one eye had inflammation the second day I saw. Other than that I dint notice any other inflammation and his legs seems normally swollen. I will try to take a video and upload for the experts to analyze and suggest further course. If its paratyphoid, I may need more directions to evaluate as he seems reasonably healthy now and seems recovering fast with regular feeding of water mixed with salt, sugar, multivitamin and herbal lever syrup (of my daughter). As he is happy eating raw rice, I am currently giving him accordingly as he can eat on his own as well though gets heavy tremors at its head while feeding (I try to shield his head by forming a semi-sphere of my hand so he do not bang the head on a hard surface). Sometimes when he tremors heavily while I am around, I pick him up and try to calm him down (he feels very comfortable at my hands and relaxes easily).

Video of the poop (water on the edges, then white discharge and dark greenish discharge at the center):
http://youtu.be/726zad43s-4

Pigeon relaxed inside the box, watching me taking the video with flash switched on (not hurting his eyes):
http://youtu.be/pfYAyA8UsMY
http://youtu.be/K2xr-L3zcMc

I have kept him on top of a thick bunch of agricultural straw and a cotton mat on top. As Straw is known to be warm and I cover the top of the box with another wooden slab in the night (keeping sufficient breathing space). Its relatively warm during the day so don't think he needs heating. I do mildly blow him dry if he wets himself with water. I clean the mat and food containers every day.

Let me know if I should still try feeding peas instead of raw rice and water. The bowl currently used for water seems wider than 2 inches so will try to replace with another container (my wife is skeptical about using multiple containers fearing infection to my daughter).
 

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The video of the dropping looked more like infection or starvation than a PMV dropping.
Pigeons need protein which he can get from the peas but not form the rice and so do feed the peas or offer dried peas as he is eating on his own, he may eat them his own. You can also add raw chopped peanuts, if you can get them there, dried lentils, small pop corn, safflower and small sunflower seed.
There is no need for your wife to worry about your daughter catching an infection form the pigeons but do practice proper hygiene by washing your hands with warm soapy water after handling the pigeon.
I thin the pigeon needs antibiotics. I know you can buy enrofloxin from the pharmacy in India. Please buy some as well as flagyl and we will give you instructions as to how much to give the pigeon.
 

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I couldn't really see very well from the video, but is the pigeon balding around the mouth? You can open his mouth and look inside as well as down his throat with a flashlight to see if everything is uniformly pink, or if there are any yellow or white nodules or patches. Those would indicate canker, and although unrelated to the neurological symptoms, could be a secondary infection that needs to be treated.

The droppings don't look like typical PMV droppings to me either. Because PMV affects the kidneys and consequently the pigeons drink quite a lot, PMV droppings often appear like big puddles of rice water with thin snake-like broken up bits of fecal matter. This dropping does look more like enteritis. And if it is due to starvation it should change very soon, now that the pigeon is eating. Of course the pigeon can have PMV as well as an infection. Those with PMV have a very hard time foraging for food and eating it when they find it, so the starvation opens them up to all sorts of infections as a result. Since you have no way to tell what it is - starting antibiotics seems like the reasonable, safe thing to do.
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
He/She (how to detect their gender?) had the right limb inflamed yesterday. I held it upside down for about an hour to reduce it and it did help reducing it. There is a possibility of starvation though he is eating rice well but not drinking a lot of water other than spilling over and resting its head on it (keeps doing it and while I can't say its balding but its head hair has become like applied gel because of this repeated behavior). Seems it has burning sensation due to which it feels comfortable around water. Sometimes it goes and rest inside the water container or rest its head on it after spilling the water around.

Please help me understand how to force feed the peas, I will do that and will get the antibiotic (I believe I need tablets, please confirm). Yesterday I mixed a small quantity of crushed paracetamol (5 to 10 mg) to reduce the inflammation and pain due to it. Is that advisable? I had stopped adding salt and sugar day before yesterday as liquid droppings had reduced. And the dropping did have dark broken snake like center dropping. I had taken the video and photos after about half an hour so it got bit mixed up.

Will try looking through the mouth to see any yellow formation.
 

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Paracetamol is not good for birds. Metacam which is available in India is a great ant-inflammatory and pain reliever, but you must be very careful with the dose and be sure the bird is hydrated. Joint inflammation points to paratyphoid (salmonellosis), so please get the antibiotic (Baytril/enrofloxacin/ciproflaxacin) ASAP and come back for dosing instructions for all meds. Pills are easier to administer than liquid, but get whatever you can find the fastest. Could you elaborate a bit on the inflamed limb - what did you find, etc. Also, I wouldn't hold the bird upside down.

Look at Charis' hand feeding instructions from June 6.
 

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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
Entire right feet was inflamed, however after then, its gone and both legs have similar characteristics and seems normal. Today morning, it had again dropped all the water and was putting its head on it in sort of cooling of manner. Have taken a video, there were fresh droppings and one of them was quite large with green center ones and a lot of water. Is it normal for them to drop big loads in the morning?

http://youtu.be/ERuKse0x_hg

I will try capturing video of its legs, you may see some on this video. It was a mess with small flies around it in the morning and droppings with water splattered across with some even at its head, back and wings.

I have tried feeding as per Charis' recommendation, however it keeps shrugging off when I tried to push the piece of peanut soaked in warm water or sprouted "mung" bean (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mung_bean for information). In India, most of the beans and grams are quite protein rich, should we still try peas only? I have been trying to feed mung and peanuts but it only eats rice and nothing else.

In India, we usually feed raw rice only to pigeons and that seems to be the reason it is only interested in eating raw rice and nothing else.
 

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I thin the pigeon needs antibiotics. I know you can buy enrofloxin from the pharmacy in India. Please buy some as well as flagyl and we will give you instructions as to how much to give the pigeon.
THIS, the bird needs antibiotics and flagyl asap.
 

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Hi Prankey,
Just watched the video - the pigeon has a very real risk of drowning, so I'd take the large bowl of water out of the box. It doesn't take much for a bird in this state to aspirate even with a small amount of water. If you feed the peas, they have enough moisture to keep him hydrated and you can also offer him water throughout the day if he wants more.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
THIS, the bird needs antibiotics and flagyl asap.
Let me know what needs to be given and how much should I buy, will go get it ASAP. I read if he has PMV, it may get aggravated and hence was holding back.

Hi Prankey,
Just watched the video - the pigeon has a very real risk of drowning, so I'd take the large bowl of water out of the box. It doesn't take much for a bird in this state to aspirate even with a small amount of water. If you feed the peas, they have enough moisture to keep him hydrated and you can also offer him water throughout the day if he wants more.
That was a temporary arrangement as I keep shifting it with utensils to keep it hygienic. I also do sponging using a soft cotton cloth and warm water with few drops of Dettol to keep other infections away. That bowl had water at the bottom about one mm only so felt its safe for it. Also the Pigeon has strong reflexes. Right now I am using a deep bowl for water but it seems too deep for him/her to drink without spilling it. Why does it keep going around water? Today morning there was a big poop inside the transparent deeper water bowl.

Its important for me to know how much of drugs/antibiotics are needed so I could buy them accordingly and try feeding with water.
 

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That bowl had water at the bottom about one mm only so felt its safe for it. Also the Pigeon has strong reflexes. Right now I am using a deep bowl for water but it seems too deep for him/her to drink without spilling it.

Its important for me to know how much of drugs/antibiotics are needed so I could buy them accordingly and try feeding with water.
Pigeons unlike other birds suck the water up, (like drinking with a straw) so 1mm of water wouldn't be enough for him to drink from anyway.

Flagy (Metronidazole) is a human as well as veterinary med. The human pills come in 200mg, 250mg or 500mg. For a pigeon, around 50mg per day is needed and some recommend lower. Usually 14 days is the maximum duration of treatment, but often shorter. So if getting human pills you'll only need a few (with a couple of spares to cover in case of mishaps). Same with the antibiotic - there's a human and animal version. A few pills of the human version will do the job, while for the veterinary - there are liquid and pills. What's available to you? There's also another human medication called Nystatin against yeast overgrowth - that is always good to give with antibiotics which make pigeons susceptible to yeast while they are on them.

Also, you don't want to give the medications in the water because you cannot dose exactly. Popping pills is very easy, so I usually try to go with pills instead of liquid if I have a choice.
 

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Entire right feet was inflamed, however after then, its gone and both legs have similar characteristics and seems normal. Today morning, it had again dropped all the water and was putting its head on it in sort of cooling of manner. Have taken a video, there were fresh droppings and one of them was quite large with green center ones and a lot of water. Is it normal for them to drop big loads in the morning?

http://youtu.be/ERuKse0x_hg

I will try capturing video of its legs, you may see some on this video. It was a mess with small flies around it in the morning and droppings with water splattered across with some even at its head, back and wings.

I have tried feeding as per Charis' recommendation, however it keeps shrugging off when I tried to push the piece of peanut soaked in warm water or sprouted "mung" bean (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mung_bean for information). In India, most of the beans and grams are quite protein rich, should we still try peas only? I have been trying to feed mung and peanuts but it only eats rice and nothing else.

In India, we usually feed raw rice only to pigeons and that seems to be the reason it is only interested in eating raw rice and nothing else.


Charis didn't say to feed him peanuts. She said peas. And rice isn't nutritional enough. It's easy to feed the peas if you hold the bird on your lap and against your body, and open his beak. Put the pea way to the back of his throat and let him close his beak and swallow. If you put it way to the back of his tongue, he will swallow it. If he throws it out, then you aren't putting it back far enough.
 

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Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
The video of the dropping looked more like infection or starvation than a PMV dropping.
Pigeons need protein which he can get from the peas but not form the rice and so do feed the peas or offer dried peas as he is eating on his own, he may eat them his own. You can also add raw chopped peanuts, if you can get them there, dried lentils, small pop corn, safflower and small sunflower seed.
There is no need for your wife to worry about your daughter catching an infection form the pigeons but do practice proper hygiene by washing your hands with warm soapy water after handling the pigeon.
I thin the pigeon needs antibiotics. I know you can buy enrofloxin from the pharmacy in India. Please buy some as well as flagyl and we will give you instructions as to how much to give the pigeon.
Charis didn't say to feed him peanuts. She said peas. And rice isn't nutritional enough. It's easy to feed the peas if you hold the bird on your lap and against your body, and open his beak. Put the pea way to the back of his throat and let him close his beak and swallow. If you put it way to the back of his tongue, he will swallow it. If he throws it out, then you aren't putting it back far enough.
Guess you dint follow the above post :), she did.

I have found a bite wound just above its left leg (beneath the wing). Its dried and hard on top but inside still seems to be healing. I do not see major damage to its body from it other than that wound seems about a centimeter deep. I have a first aid cream which I have applied to it, let me know if I should do something else and if the twisting head is due to the wound and not an infection (I did check if there is another wound or broken bone around the neck, but dint find anything unusual). Seems it was bitten the day we found it (never saw any blood though).

Video - http://youtu.be/gPAlWvuKi-s

I can get human medication and cut the pills and will try to feed as you advice, seems I was not trying well.

Sprouted beans have heavy quantity of water and protein and are very soft to swallow, should I try them?
 

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If you are seeing bright green poop, it could be the bird isn't eating enough on his own and may need to be hand fed.

__________________


You can hand feed defrosted peas. Run some hot water over them until they are defrosted and slightly warmed. Put the bird on your lap and hold it next to your body. If it helps because you are having a hard time handling the pigeon, you can wrap a towel around it or put it in the sleeve of a tee shirt, with the head out the wrist. This method confines the pigeon without hurting him and makes it easier to handle. Gently open the beak and pop a pea at the back of the mouth and over the throat. It gets easier and faster, with practice, for both you and the bird.
You will need to feed 30-50 per feeding [depending on the size of the pigeon] and every time the crop empties until you know the pigeon is eating on his own.
it could be that or most likely PMV
 
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