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Discussion Starter #41
In all honesty, I don't know which seeds he eats from the mix. I separate the peas, corn and sunflower - as I noticed he skips on peas and corn (like all my pigeons do) and sunflower looks too large. I have a mix from Versele Laga - the one for youngsters I think it is at the moment, looks more or less like: 1605301374910.png
He eats the small and medium sized ones, seems to like brown seed. He wastes a lot, but I'm spoiling him with fresh seed 3-4 times a day. He does not eat vegetables, none of my pigeons look at those. I did give him some grated carrot at the start (vet had suggested it, but he didn't explain why, and didn't insist on it, and my bird didn't care for the carrot, so I didn't insist either).
I gave him a few pieces of carrot tonight, chopped in like grain size, also 2 small pieces of red chilli pepper (like 2-3 mm wide, and the pepper was somewhat dehydrated so it was thin). None of it was cooked. I will look for some proper supplements. The Omni-vit was actually one of the first vitamins I tried to give my pigeons some years ago, but they didn't want to touch the water with it. I think the colour and smell was wrong for them. It's why I went for pills, I only have 6 birds, so I can just hand give a pill to each periodically and I know they got it. I'm pretty sure I can find OmniVit in my town, the store I buy feed from keeps plenty of Versele Laga stuff. Now the issue is having him drink it.

You have no idea how I am crossing my fingers.
 

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When I was treating my pigeon Chris "Pikachu" he didn't want to drink the Omni-vit vitamin because he didn't like the yellow color too (I was using a small transparent glass bowl because I kept him in a small box)....Have you tried to put the water in a dark bowl (like a blue one) or in any other colored bowl which can mask/cover the yellow color? Now Pikachu drinks them without problems because he does not see the color 馃槈. Btw he is the only one who did not want to touch the water with it. About the strong smell... I don't have any suggestions...

Even my birds don't eat fruits or vegetables. Years ago my vet suggested me to try to give them apple, zucchini/courgette, etc (eating fruits and vegetables is a natural way to get vitamins, etc) but they ignored them and I have to throw them away... Once, while I was cooking my dinner, Aurora was looking at me (she is really curious!). I gave her a leaf of spinach: she looked at it with disgust 馃檮...
I know it's not like eating real fruits or vegetables but I am used to give to my birds a mixture for canary containing dehydrated fruits: they all love it.

I am used to buy pigeon/dove mixtures of different brands (btw I have too a Versele Laga mixture, it is called Doves prestige) and mix them each other. I add to them dried legumes (the ones for humans that you can find at supermarket) like small lentils, mung beans, etc. and the mixture for canary. Have you ever tried to give them dried legumes?

How is he doing today?
 

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Discussion Starter #43
I did not try dried legumes, and I could actually make them myself, and be sure they don't have additives, as I own a dehydrator. I was thinking about trying the dove mix, since my pigeons mostly eat the small seed. They are god's gift to the ferals that get the leftovers - plenty of them. I also found recently on the net some interesting mixes for pigeons - some with only small seed and some with minerals and pellets. I'll see maybe I can order the vitamins from them too.

We weren't lucky last night, around midnight he had an episode of choking and we had to put him in the nebuliser. He calmed, but had another fit around 4 am, which he passed on his own. In the morning, he was starting to wheeze again, but I decided to try putting a couple of saline solution drops in his nostrils. It seemed to work, he got over the wheezing. Today he was out of his room and with the others for most of the time. I had cleaning planned so I figured I'll disinfect everything anyway, and I don't let him eat from the others' bowls. The whole activity seemed to make him happy enough and his breathing was almost normal all day. He's very different when he's free - sometimes he's not even keeping his beak open at all. He wanted to sleep with the others, looked morose when I took him to his spot. In the evening he was starting to wheeze a little again and we repeated the couple of saline solution drops. He is sleeping now, we'll see if he needs nebulisation tonight later. These episodes - he looks like he is choking, he opens his beak wide and shakes his head, as if trying to get something out. There is nothing coming out but you can hear a bit of a gurgle.

I went shopping for vitamins, unfortunately they didn't have the Omnivit. I bought a generic vitamin mix that contains 10k UI/ml and a Vitamin A+D3 bottle that contains 50k UI/ml. Both are generic veterinary use, but with dosage for birds too. I'll look online for Omnivit, but until it arrives, I figured those would be better than nothing. I gave him from the A+D3 bottle today, and he actually drank twice in front of me so he got something.

I wonder if reducing the nebulisation with acetylcisteine would have a negative effect, as in creating some kind of buildup that would otherwise be removed? I'm honestly just trying to make as little use of these drugs as possible, but I don't want to make things worse for him.
 

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I still think canker is a huge possibility. I know you've checked inside the beak, but have you ever taken a flashlight to check deep inside the throat? Sometimes it helps to stretch the neck a bit upwards, then it's easier to check.
 

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Discussion Starter #45 (Edited)
I'm really not that good with opening the beak, but the vet did check the throat, and he also gave me metronidazole - but said it was mainly to boost the doxycicline. I gave him 5 days of it. I will still double check with him on monday. Would it not have shown on those samples he got taken and put under the microscope? The vet stuck a tube down the throat for a sample (the other was from the roof of the mouth). He then did some things with the samples on glass pieces that turned them in all kinds of colours - blue and purple mostly. His poops are good - surprising good considering how many antibiotics he's been on. They are sometimes on the watery side, but most of the times they are nicely round and solid.
 

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If he tested for canker and the test was negative, well then it can't be that. You can always ask him to double check, just for in case.
 

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Discussion Starter #47
I don't think he tested specifically for canker. He just took samples from throat and beak, had 3 of those glass sheets. I will of course double check.
He's had an episode last night around 2 AM, but he was just given some drops of saline solution (the kind used for injectables, I have it in house for the nebulisation) and he calmed down. In the morning he was starting to wheeze and we did same, and he was ok after that. His breathing today seems relatively ok. His poops last night were a bit on the messy side - kinda dark in colour, but today they seem back to their normal greenish-brownish colour and consistency. He's free around the house, as he was getting morose locked. The only thing giving me hope in this whole situation was that he's lively, active and eating. How high would you say the danger is for my other pigeons - as in is his condition due to some really nasty pathogen, or is it more something related to him specifically? He's been almost 7 weeks in quarantine.
 

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Discussion Starter #48 (Edited)
I'm starting to think about canker too. We opened his beak and there is a little yellow line on the side of his beak. He had started going into a chocking fit. But how could the vet have missed it?
I was away from home for a couple of hours and I left him in the quarantine bedroom, came back and found him breathing heavily under the bed, tail bent down at a sharp angle. He cheered up when he saw the door open and buggered off, ate from one of the others bowls' like he'd not seen food in 3 days (although he had eaten from his too), but then got chased and went into the chocking fit. After he calmed down, he jumped into the drinking bowl and took a bath (I had left him a dish of water in his room but he ignored it).

How exactly do you test for canker?
Edit: apparently it's tested by throat swab, which my vet did.
I'm very discouraged. He looks worse. Took him in the bedroom to dry and he just sits facing a wall.
 

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Be very careful, don't let them share the same food and waterdish. If he has canker, your other birds will also get infected. Amazing that he is still eating so well.

Can you get metronidazole from a pharmacy? Do you have Nystatin? If you want to treat, give 10 mg metro for every 100 gr that he weighs. Once a day for 10 days. Nystatin about 0,5 ml twice a day on an empty crop.
 

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Discussion Starter #50
I threw away the rest of the seed in that bowl and disinfected it after he ate. Same with the water bowl he took a bath in. I usually don't allow him to eat from the others' bowls, but he was so enthusiastic, I felt bad to take it away from him.

I can get metronidazole, I can get ronidazole too. Never heard of Nystatin. It seems to be in human pharmacy in the shape of pills. Might be complicated getting the liquid form, but I'll ask. Is it a good idea to give him those even if he's not been actually diagnosed with canker though?

I'm at the point where I'd try anything. His breathing tonight is shallow and ragged. He did come down to eat and drink after he got dry but then immediately went back and fluffed there. I had added some ACV in his water. I went to check him closer and when he tried to bite me, I thought I could see a little yellow liquid in his mouth, but it wasn't enough to be sure it was there. He had just drank water too. I wonder if the yellow bit I saw could have been some residual doxycicline dust. I'm pretty sure one day I slipped some the wrong way...

This guy is such a fighter, I just feel I'm letting him down. This video was taken this morning, I wanted to get a better one, but didn't get around: New video by Oana Rusu
 

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Discussion Starter #51
Have you heard of a product called Fosbac Plus? It's what I gave him in the start - he had great progress over the 5 days of it, but not cleared the breathing, which is why I went to the vet and after that followed what he prescribed. I still have it, was pretty expensive, but had been told it's really good. The prospect says it contains fosfomycin, which is supposed to be very gently, efficient and not develop resistance. Also contains tylosin.
 

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You will need to check inside the beak again. I know it's difficult when they struggle so much. Cover his body with a lightweight cloth and only let the beak stick out. Then gently open and check to see what is going on.

He doesn't look too bad in the video. I guess the breathing gets worse when he is under stress, for ex when you approach him. Was just wondering if he might have aspirated some meds when you started treating him.

I've not heard about the fosbac plus and has never used it. Did some reading, seems as if this product can treat a lot of infections.
 

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Discussion Starter #53 (Edited)
I'll try look in his mouth better tomorrow. We just had to bother him to put some saline solution drops in his nose, as he was starting to wheeze.
He's like in the video when he is out and about. When I lock him back in quarantine bedroom, he just wilts. He wasn't so bad before, it's a whole room after all, but lately he just seems to sulk whenever stuck in it. The only pigeon I've had so long in quarantine was Blue, with the pox, and he was really sick for most of the time and spent his time in a box. This guy hopped out of his box on day 2 and never even looked back. He's quite the explorer, and changed his sleeping place 5 times so far.a
Yes, I think he aspirated doxycicline once, on tuesday. He's started hating me with the vet visits, and the treatments didn't improve things. At start he was picking food from my fingers, now he runs from them . He flies to my head when he wants to escape the others, but the hands seem to terrify him.
 

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How is he doing today?

I have never heard of Fosbac Plus.

When will you see your vet again? I would not give him metrodinazole without a new vet test or without seeing canker in his beak. The throat swab didn't show canker. Stress (caused by antibiotics and by the whole situation) could increase the risk of multiplication of the canker organism but we don't know if that happened (it happened to my pigeon Londo when I was treating her for her cloacal prolapse). He is getting many medications (he also got metrodinazole/Flagyl for 5 days), giving metro without a real reason would be more harmful than useful. That's my own opinion, of course.
Have you tried to check again his mouth/throat with a flashlight (the flashlight of a smartphone works well)? If someone could help you it will be easier to check it (the first person keeps the pigeon with one hand against his body and keeps the flashlight with the other hand; the second person opens the beak and check inside it).

When you need to give a liquid medicine you could use a "tool" like the one in the pic, I find it more practical and more safer than a normal syringe. Because of its shape it is easier to avoid the risk of aspiration. Have you told to your vet that maybe he aspirated a bit of doxycycline (I have doxycycline in tablet form).

We can't say how high is the danger for your other pigeons because we don't know what is wrong. In any case, be very careful.

Yes, it would be a good idea making dried legumes with your dehydrator: mung beans, small lentils (my birds don't like dark green and orange lentils), etc.
 

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Discussion Starter #55 (Edited)
Pretty ugly day today. He seemed a bit too quiet this morning, and I decided to try see the people at the university (veterinary) for another opinion and maybe different ideas. I got there, checked in "infectious diseases" compartment, told the doctor there the whole story, she barely took a look at him for 10 seconds, then her phone rang and she went to talk, and he got so agitated I had to put him back in the box. She didn't request to see him again, told me to come back with him on wednesday for her to run some tests, said it's too early today after his antibiotics. When I was leaving, I asked her if she could check for canker, and she said I need to go to Parazitology compartment for that. Went there, eventually found a doctor, I told him the story, told him about the canker posibility. He tried opening his beak but his hands were shaking so badly, he could barely crack it a little, and I think I had a better look than he did when I did it at home. He said he's afraid to do this with such delicate things. He "thought" he saw some yellow dots, but asked me to try check at home to be sure... I asked if they could do a fecal, unfortunatelly I had left 2 fresh poops made in the box at the Infectious diseases place, and my bird had only produced one more poop while I was looking for the Parazitology. They took that, said they will call me if anything comes up, but said the sample is too small for something conclusive. So I left the place after 2 hours knowing nothing extra, and being rather unconvinced about the canker part. I decided to give my vet another call ( at least he knows how to open a beak), and more or less forced him to see me today. The time was so that I could get home, wait 15 minutes and leave back, but I figured I might as well have him eat, which he did when we got home. At the vet, I was told he sounds worse than last week. The vet checked for canker, said there isn't, and in any case he had metronidazole last week. He showed me the inside of the beak too, and I saw some yellow stuff, which the vet could not identify, but said it's not canker (said maybe something he ate, though nothing could look yellow, except maybe some doxycicline from last week? ). Then he listened to his lungs and tracheea and I think everywhere that could be listened, and my baby got so horrified, I thought he will faint or die when he was put back in the box. Vet took a long time thinking. Told me the lungs sound relatively ok, but the trachea isn't. He first said "let's try with something naturist" and suggested tea tree oil in a diffuser. He though some more and asked me when did he feel best - and honestly, I think he was best before all the antibiotics, right in the start, after the first few days with the fosbac stuff. He asked me if I had any symptoms of flu this time, I said no - he thought maybe chlamidiosys. He asked if my other pigeons developped any similar symptoms - my latest rescue has developed a little wheezing, but she's not breathing with beak open, and she had respiratory issues herself. In the end, he decided to try an antifungal treatment. It feels like another stab in the dark, but I think I'm running out of options and time fast. He prescribed me a treatment I had last year for another pigeon - nebulising with clortrimazole (it worked for that pigeon). I asked if it's better to wait for those tests on wednesday, he said they would be useful, but I can move on with the anti-fungal treatment, and just tell them to do a microbiologic test, not mycotic.

I got home, my poor bird ate something and went on top of the wardrobe where he preened for a while and then went to sleep (it had gotten dark meanwhile). I put on a little tea tre oil in a aromatherapy lamp. He did come down a little while ago when he saw a bit of light in the hallway, so I turned on his light and he went to drink, then back up to his spot. He seems to be sleeping standing on one leg.

Thing is, I just researched tea tree oil and it is apparently toxic to birds?! I turned off the aromatherapy lamp, I had just lit it back on, I didn't leave it long earlier.
I asked the vet about using nystatin and he said he would prefer something that can be nebulised, as antifungal medicine is heavy on the liver and he would rather not have it go through his system and get it targeted at the needed area. I bought the clortrimazole, but I don't know if I should stress my bird further tonight with a nebulisation, or if to risk waiting until wednesday for those tests.

Edit: Oh, they called me back with the fecal results. Said the sample was too small to be conclusive, but nothing serious seemed to be there. I have a plastic recipient to gather more poop for next time.
 

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Sounds as if it was all a waste of time. Your vet is wrong about Nystatin, it does not get absorbed into the body. If you type Nystatin into the search section, you can read all about it. The yellow in the beak sounds suspicious.
 

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Discussion Starter #57 (Edited)
I am desperate. It feels I can find nobody I can trust to see him. I am actually afraid to take him for those tests, given how one of those doctors couldn't even open his beak. He had samples taken from his throat before, and it was traumatic enough with a person that at least seemed to know how to do it. the way he looks, I don't know if he will make it by tomorrow, and yesterday was so horrible on stress for him, doing it tomorrow again seems traumatic. I'd do it, but I'm not even sure they will manage to be of any use.

I left him alone last night, he had an episode during the night and one when waking up he didn't manage to pass. He's breathing fast with his beak open. I've put him in the nebuliser with clortrimazole, in lack of a better option, would you advise nystatin too? Or just nystatin? You mentioned a solution but I can only find pills here.

I've read a couple of topics on nystatin, but I can't find anything related to respiratory issues. If it doesn't get into his system, how will it get to his trachea or lungs?
He's barely picked at his food today and is just sitting under the bed. I tried luring him with some defrosted peas, but that baby that was eagerly picking them from my fingers a month ago is now shrinking away from me in fear. This is heartbreaking.
 

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I think it's most important now to check what is going on inside his beak. If he has yeast or canker inside the mouth, this can intevere with his breathing, especially if it starts covering his breathing hole. Surely you must be able to get liquid Nystatin, it's a thick yellow liquid. Ask the pharmacist for an anti-fungal liquid, I think the name differs in other countries. Also get metronidazole and clavet 50 (amoxycillin). You might not use them all now, but at least have them ready in case of an emergency.

But please, pull your courage together and check inside the beak. Don't take him for tests if you feel uncomfortable about it.
 

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Discussion Starter #59
I did look in his beak yesterday, the vet arranged him towards me and had me look with him. The yellow thing I saw didn't look like canker, more like secretion with a little bit drying at an end. I've seen canker before. I tried looking for yellow secretions in the beak, google mentioned circo-virus? I got instantly scared of that, thinking of my pigeons, and didn't allow him the walks in the house anymore (though might be too late for that).
He was more mellow today, looking more tired. I took him to the balcony quarantine, as he didn't seem to want to move much anyway. He spent the day looking out, eating, preening and...breathing heavily. Looked so bad, I just decided to give him a round of nebulisation with acetylcisteine, hoping I'll at least ease his breathing. As soon as I take him out, I'll go see about Nystatin, I have 4 pharmacies in range. If I find the liquid thing, what do I do with it?
He was scheduled for those tests tomorrow, but I don't know if he would survive them, and I don't want him to go that way. Id' give it a try but those people didn't inspire even a shred of confidence. I know my vet hasn't been of much help, but he at least tried.
 

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Discussion Starter #60
Went to 3 pharmacies - the 4th had a long line and decided to try later. None of the pharmacists heard of nystatin liquid. They have it as caps, powder or some mix with glycerine and borax. The only liquid anti-fungal they have is clortrimazole. I also went by the nature shop and got some garlic caps - but they contain garlic powder, not oil.
His breathing calmed a little after the nebulisation, but he looks weak and fluffed, like he is cold.
 
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