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It occurs to me that the feel of the feet from your point of view could be a little funny due to the feathers. Most of the birds that we deal with don't have significant feathers from the distal tibiotarsus down. Where's that? Take a look at the drawings here:

http://people.eku.edu/ritchisong/skeleton.html

In the bottom drawing, you can see the individual bones of the feet and legs, not all of which are named there. The joint where the lateral condyle meets the calcaneal ridge is the equivalent of the heel in us. It's at the portion of the tibiotarsus that's furthest from the body proper or the "distal tibiotarsus". The section called the "tarsometatarsus" would be the same as the bones of our feet between the heel and the toes. In birds, it's all one bone that's more or less "C" shaped, with the trough or hollow of the bone facing downward. The tendons that actually work the "phalanges" (toes) run through that channel.

Therefore, look and feel very carefully each section where you think there's a bump, swelling or anomaly and compare it to the exact same spot on the other side. Make sure they're not associated with feathers. Then, using the drawings for place-names, go ahead and try to describe exactly where you think any truly suspictions bumps are and we'll try to figure out if we need to try anything more than just simple time, food and room to stretch and walk.

Pidgey
 

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Ornacyn Plus is Erythromycin. That one doesn't absorb as well from the GI (gastrointestinal tract) in pigeons. Part of that's from my vet and part of it's from... some deep, dark memory. Did they have any other antibiotics?

Pidgey
 
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Possibly...this Bird is also in an on-going phase of Vitamin-Mineral deficiency...hardly uncommon with 'pet stores'.


This would exhagerate appearances of what otherwise might be a mild strain or sprain of a Leg...or slow healing of it.


If he is going to be on an anti-biotic regimen, then sources of supplimental Calcium should be with-held, rather than given - so, Oyster or other Calcium-enriched Grit types, as well as the all-purpose Bird-Vitamin-mineral would not be provided. during an anti-biotic regimen.


Can't have it both ways.



This Pigeon does not appear ill, or sick...


However, he sounds typical of long-standing malnutrition issues.



Poops look good, other than being 'fiberous' from lack of Grit.


Malnutrition histories take time to rectify.



This appears to be a young Pigeon, possibly only a few months old.


If part 'Pouter' or similar, likely came from someone breeding special varieties of Pigeons, and who knows what Anti-biotic and other 'flock-meds' history is there...having already ontributed to his issues.


He might also have never been allowed any direct outdoor Sunshine, for his system to make Vitamin D...


So, supplying Vitamin D might be a good idea....as it also is important for his Calcium metabolism...which might be some of what is going on with the Leg(s).


Small Bottles of 400 IU 'football' shaped Capsules of Vitamin D are available at Health Food Stores...and one of these a-day for several days, popped into his Beak as-is, would be a good thing...but, would be best along with supplimental Calcium and a medley of B Vitamins...so...a decision will need to be made, as for whether to treat for supposed bacterial inflammation of a Leg Joint...or, a Leg suffering from incidental sprain-strain and a history of malnutrition.


One or the other...but you can't do both at the same time.




Phil
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Discussion Starter #45
Ok, he's on my lap, eating right now, don't wanna disturb him- I'm gonna check his legs when he's done... Thanks for the info! But yes, from my previous checks, the 'lumps' are not on the same spot on each leg...

And antibiotics, they had tetracycline, some others- all the 'cycline' types, he said...
 

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Ok, he's on my lap, eating right now, don't wanna disturb him- I'm gonna check his legs when he's done... Thanks for the info! But yes, from my previous checks, the 'lumps' are not on the same spot on each leg...

And antibiotics, they had tetracycline, some others- all the 'cycline' types, he said...


If there is a swollen area along a long bone, it would tend to indicate a still healing frature.

Swollen areas immediately next to, or including Joints, also occcur from sprain or fracture, and the swelling will remain while healing.
 

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Anyway, Aqua, you should check his mouth and Throat...as others have already suggested.


Wrap him gently in a small Towel, so his Lags are 'back', Feet against his Tail...

Spigot him between your Legs, behind your knees, as you sit, so you are holding him that way, hands free, holding him so your Legs are against Tail and almost tummy area and excess Towel, as it were, since you don't want any pressure on him.


Under a strong Light or Lamp, gently open his Beak and look carefully in his Throat and Mouth.


Note his Trachea, behind his Tongue, in front of his Throat proper, which Tradchea is his Wind Pipe of course...and see if it and everything else in there is a nice 'Shell Pink' or if anything is otherwise.



Phil
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I know this must seem like alot of info to take in!...lol....but just wanted you to know your doing a fine job of getting this guy better, he is preciouse:)
 

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Discussion Starter #49 (Edited)
Good morning all... :)

I wanted to reply last night, but I had such a headache after all the stress from yesterday... :(

Anyway, I didn't have any luck 'force feeding' him, I couldn't even get his mouth open- as soon as I'd get it 'gapped', he'd whip his head around and that was that... He ate a somewhat "OK-ish" amount of food while sitting on my lap last night, but this morning, he's pecked maybe 15 pieces of food... :(

I'm bummed, I feel completely helpless... I don't know what I can do... He won't touch the formula, and getting it in his mouth is NOT working... I know it's probably from my inexperience with this sort of thing...

I don't even have words to describe how I feel right now.

I don't understand, he constantly nibbles all over my fingers, hand and arm... All over the blanket, my sleeves, any fabric at all- trying to pull pieces off....... It's almost like he's looking for a food source in those places... Could that behavior mean anything?

PS...
when he does the open mouth thing, the inside looks to be a nice shade of rosy pink. Again, being the lousy bird handler I am, I can't open it long enough to look for any amount of time....
 

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Maybe Kippermom can help you with that.
Did you try the deep dish of seed right in front of him?
 

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oh boy, I know it's hard....try putting the back of his head in the palm of your left hand and then use the thumb and index finger to hold his head still,and top beak staionary, little tuff love here...and then use your right hand thumb nail to open the bottom beak, your left hand keeping the head still, wrapping him in a towel like a burrito will help too.
 

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Discussion Starter #52
Maybe Kippermom can help you with that.
Did you try the deep dish of seed right in front of him?
Yeah, he still just pecks a few pieces here and there...

oh boy, I know it's hard....try putting the back of his head in the palm of your left hand and then use the thumb and index finger to hold his head still,and top beak staionary, little tuff love here...and then use your right hand thumb nail to open the bottom beak, your left hand keeping the head still, wrapping him in a towel like a burrito will help too.
Ok, I'll try that... I felt his neck, it's so skinny... :( It's hard to imagine how he can swallow anything... Should I try the corn and peas again, or the baby bird formula? And is there a risk of him choking- especially with the formula if I squirt it into his mouth? I read about tube feeding, but omg, that looks so difficult and potentially dangerous... :(
 

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Yeah, he still just pecks a few pieces here and there...



Ok, I'll try that... I felt his neck, it's so skinny... :( It's hard to imagine how he can swallow anything... Should I try the corn and peas again, or the baby bird formula? And is there a risk of him choking- especially with the formula if I squirt it into his mouth? I read about tube feeding, but omg, that looks so difficult and potentially dangerous... :(
just check his throat is clear, and give the peas and corn....room temp, not cold
 

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Discussion Starter #54
Ok, I'll give it another shot... He's sitting on my lap right now, and eating... It's weird, but he tries to get on my lap and it seems as if he eats a bit more when he's sitting on me... Could it be the warmth he likes?
 

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Ok, I'll give it another shot... He's sitting on my lap right now, and eating... It's weird, but he tries to get on my lap and it seems as if he eats a bit more when he's sitting on me... Could it be the warmth he likes?
he might be a yb so he may think you as his parent, if he is eating like that, keep doing what your doing, let us know how much though as he may need to be supplimented....the more he eats the better he may start to feel and go on to eat more normal from there...warm is good as if he is under the weather it will benifit him...
 

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Ok, I'll give it another shot... He's sitting on my lap right now, and eating... It's weird, but he tries to get on my lap and it seems as if he eats a bit more when he's sitting on me... Could it be the warmth he likes?

Hi Aqua,



Many times, they prefer to eat with someone, so, if he's eating more, or has more interest on-your-lap, then that's fine, enourage him with your companionship...even 'pecking' along with him, using your crook'd index finger.


How many poops is he making in 24 hours?



Phil
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Discussion Starter #57
You know, the crooked finger thing seems to be somewhat effective so far... :) I'm gonna continue to do that and see how much I can get him to eat! And poops, well, when I woke up, there was about 6 poops in his cage since last night... And he's gone 4 times since I got him out 3 hours ago... I'll keep count today...

I tried to put a mirror in front of him, thinking maybe it would help with the 'social' feel, but he just stared at it, neck extended, not moving at all, like a statue... :p
 
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If you have a gram scale, like used for cooking, or can borrow one, you can weigh him. That's the best way to see if he's losing or gaining any weight.
 

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Discussion Starter #59
I'll have to ask some people about the scale, thats a good idea... :)

Also, if anyone knows, can a respiratory infection cause lack of appetite or anything that would involve not eating much?

I've heard him sneeze a few times- it's not excessive, no fluid or anything like that- just a quite little 'pfft' sound... But I noticed sometimes when he's eating, he'll make odd breathing, exhaling sounds- kinda 'pfft-ish', but not a sneeze... A bird shop recommended Ornaycyn Plus for that... Any experience with that particular antibiotic?

Thanks again to you all!
 

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Hi Aqua,

I just briefly read through your posts, and one thing did come to mind and that is the distilled water. I would agree with Pdpbison (Phil) on this. Distilled water is purified water that has had all it's minerals removed and there is evidence that this water will leech calcium and other minerals from the body.

http://www.historyofwaterfilters.com/distillation-pc.html

I would suggest either tap water or a good bottled but not distilled. Buy a britta water filter to use with tap water if that makes you feel more comfortable that the water is "clean" enough.

Good luck with your pigeon and I hope he/she improves with the walking and standing. :)
 
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