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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi,
I'm not new to this forum but new to this situation.
One of 'my' feral flock today, he was picking up pellets and tossing back his head to try and eat them. I wondered if he might have canker or another issue as I am currently treating a pidge for canker (wish her luck) and she can't swallow properly and I haven't managed to catch her husbird yet, so I initially I thought this bird might be the husbird of the hen I have as he was with her when I caught them and he looked a little ill, too, though not as bad and I didn't manage to catch him.

Anyway, today's bird, he would then turn in a circle and then do the same thing (pick up a pellet and toss back his head) then turn in a circle. He was, however, suceeding in getting pellets in, despite his method.
It looked totally neurological to me so I came here to try and figure out what it might be, and of course PMV comes up as a possible cause. I also noticed that he let me near him; some of the birds do that as they know me, but also sick birds don't fly away as quickly as the others so I figured something's wrong with him and I also know neuro animals can sometimes lose their fear to a degree.

I lured him into my 'trap' and got him quite easily, though I let him eat some, first, which he was doing ok with.

At the moment he's undergoing 'quiet' time while he gets over the shock of being caught (I will examine later - weight and for canker, and he should have a full crop at the moment) but apart from the neurological signs, he looks quite healthy (fairly sure it's a cock bird), no fluffing up, no signs of anything respiratory and he was foraging the same as the others, at the same pace, just doing these weird movements. I don't yet know what his droppings are like.

So my questions are: his neuro signs, are these early or late signs of the disease? Is it possible he's already had it and got over it and this is his new' normal'?
Is it always fatal?
Am I better off taking him for euthanasia now or is he worth rehabbing? (I am always up for helping them)?

I will defo take to vet for Dx but in terms of rehabbing for PMV, if it is that, what can I expect?

I read a thread that suggested B vitamin deficiency but I doubt that. Assuming he is coming regularly to my place to feed, he would be eating mostly pigeon pellets (sometimes chicken when I can't get the pigeon ones) both of which are fortified. (If he is not a regular and eating at McDonalds like some other local birds, then yes, he could be deficient - I have so many birds there's a only a handful I recognise).

All responses gratefully received

Donna
 

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I've only cared for one PMV pigeon so far and still have her. Her symptoms were at it's worst by week 6, seizures that were horrible. But then she started recovering and by week 8 I put her in my aviary. She could not fly for a long time, but today she is perfectly normal.

You've done right by taking him in, this will prevent the disease spreading. This might be the beginning stages, as he is still alive. Don't have him euthanized. You can take him to a vet, maybe they can give him a boost injection or something. PMV is not always fatal, but after 6 weeks you will need to decide if he is unreleasable or not.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thank you, Marina.
I've just weighed and checked him, he gave me a good growl when I got him out the carrier which is a good sign (he'd been in there for a few hours, quietly), and I can't see signs of canker or anything at else at this stage, mouth looks clean, eyes and nares clean and good though his keel is prominent (not as prominent as my canker bird or previous ones I've rehabbed), feathers looking in good condition (my canker bird looks rubbish at the moment).

I've isolated him but they are in adjoining rooms - I need to open the door from the room he is in to get to her. Is it an airborne disease? I don't have anywhere else to put him. I could put him in my gym room but it has a strong smell of rubber from the weight plates, and I know birds are very sensitive to chemical odours, so I'm not keen to put him there though it would keep him completely separate from her and it is warm and safe, it's just a bedroom converted to a gym. I just figure if I can smell the rubber, then he could.

I've just seen her turn the corner tonight and start improving so I would hate for her to be exposed to anything via him. I guess I will know more tomorrow when I see his droppings (I've now caged him on his own) and see if any further symptoms develop.
Thanks for your input. Appointment with vet 36 hours from now, see what he diagnoses.
Thanks again for your input,
Donna

I've only cared for one PMV pigeon so far and still have her. Her symptoms were at it's worst by week 6, seizures that were horrible. But then she started recovering and by week 8 I put her in my aviary. She could not fly for a long time, but today she is perfectly normal.

You've done right by taking him in, this will prevent the disease spreading. This might be the beginning stages, as he is still alive. Don't have him euthanized. You can take him to a vet, maybe they can give him a boost injection or something. PMV is not always fatal, but after 6 weeks you will need to decide if he is unreleasable or not.
 

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Seperate rooms will be ok. First tend to your pigeon with canker, give your hands a good wash and then tend to your PMV pigeon. You can ask the vet to test for salmonella, this can cause the same symptoms when the brain gets affected by the disease. Plse don't let the vet talk you into euthanizing him. If he is unreleasable, he can still have a good life with you.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thanks again Marina.
I'm a stickler for hygiene!
The vet won't likely suggest euthanasia, he's an avian vet and he's with me on trying to rehab them, he's helped with a few of them so far. I will ask for the test, thanks for the suggestion.
This morning he is eating well and his poops look normal. He's the first bird that I haven't had to pea-feed, most won't eat or drink for a few days when I capture them so that's great I don't have to do that and he's self-feeding.

Unfortunately I cannot keep him if he turns out unreleasable. I have pet rats and as it is, whenever I have a pigeon in rehab they know it and are curious and want to get into the room. They would attack a bird. I tried once before keeping parrots but the rats would climb the legs of the cage adn sit on top of it and stress out the parrot. Someone was going to get hurt so I had to rehome the parrots, it wasn't working out. Probably also because the pigeon stays in one of their free range /play areas so they aren't too happy about being shut out.
I would find him a home. If I have to spend money with the avian vet, (and I don't have a job!) I'm not then going to rehab the bird just to then euthanise him.
thanks again



Seperate rooms will be ok. First tend to your pigeon with canker, give your hands a good wash and then tend to your PMV pigeon. You can ask the vet to test for salmonella, this can cause the same symptoms when the brain gets affected by the disease. Plse don't let the vet talk you into euthanizing him. If he is unreleasable, he can still have a good life with you.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Follow up: Vet is reasonably certain it's not PMV but to keep bird isolated for another 10 days to see if he develops anything else. Everything else is normal about him. I did notice when I pick him up out the carrier he had a seizure, because he was scared. Vet says there may be brain inflammation that might settle down. It's wait and see with this bird.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
No, he didn't. I asked about Meloxicam but he didn't think it useful. I do have doxcycline powder for birds, though. I think he's doubtful this bird is going to recover, but is just conceding to give him some time to wait and see.
I hope he makes a speedy recovery. Did the vet give any meds?
 

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It's likely salmonella. That causes infections in various parts of the body and neurological issues is one of those symptoms that can crop up. Enrofloxacin or baytril is the only antibiotic to fight that. Salmonella/Paratyphoid is more common than PMV, and its frustrating that many on this community jump right to PMV. If it was PMV the bird would be dead already. Salmonella/Paratyphoid can last for weeks or months once they have the visible symptoms you see; you likely need to treat for 2-4 weeks. Twisted neck is another symptom of both PMV and salmonella, and common sense tells me that Salmonella/Paratyphoid is most likely as it's more common. We use enrofloxacin tablets so we know each bird gets the correct dose (1-10mg tablet per day). The pill packet says only for 3-7 days but we keep them going until symptoms are done. Our last run was 2 weeks, reevaluate and add 7 days, reevaluate etc until symptoms are gone. Additionally if you have to run more than 2 weeks on enrofloxacin/baytril we add in doxybird as instructed on the package to prevent yeast infections. Be aware if this bird comes back to normal from Salmonella/Paratyphoid using the meds it will likely become an asymptomatic carrier of Salmonella.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
Thank you so much for this. I did have someone else on another board also suggest salmonella or rota disease but the conversation got shut down for reasons i don't know, and I'm no closer to answers than when I started. I do have baytril already, but I only have the liquid form, 25mg/ml (I use it daily to treat respiratory infections in my pet rats) and I would have to take him back to the vet and get a new Rx for tablets and I don't have the money for that, so I either use what I have on hand or nothing. I just don't have anymore money. (The liquid would be easier to administer anyway, though the strength may be too high, please advise). Is Salmonella detected in droppings? If so, the vet did take some of his droppings, walked away with them then came back and said they were fine. If someone can get a correct dose for me then I can try him on it.
I have since seen another bird who has eyes that look slightly bashed in or closed, he turns in circles, tries to fly, goes up, spins around in the air then splat, onto the ground, tries again and somehow, makes a less than straight flight, but gets airborne. I'm trying to catch this one, too. I feed hundreds of pigeons a day, I was starting to think that if it was PMV surely I would see more birds affected? So far, I've seen two, maybe three birds out of the hundred or more that visit me in different flocks, several times a day for food. With salmonella, what do their droppings look like? If you can help me with a dose for the liquid baytril, I can start. Bird weighs around 233gms. Thanks again


It's likely salmonella. That causes infections in various parts of the body and neurological issues is one of those symptoms that can crop up. Enrofloxacin or baytril is the only antibiotic to fight that. Salmonella/Paratyphoid is more common than PMV, and its frustrating that many on this community jump right to PMV. If it was PMV the bird would be dead already. Salmonella/Paratyphoid can last for weeks or months once they have the visible symptoms you see; you likely need to treat for 2-4 weeks. Twisted neck is another symptom of both PMV and salmonella, and common sense tells me that Salmonella/Paratyphoid is most likely as it's more common. We use enrofloxacin tablets so we know each bird gets the correct dose (1-10mg tablet per day). The pill packet says only for 3-7 days but we keep them going until symptoms are done. Our last run was 2 weeks, reevaluate and add 7 days, reevaluate etc until symptoms are gone. Additionally if you have to run more than 2 weeks on enrofloxacin/baytril we add in doxybird as instructed on the package to prevent yeast infections. Be aware if this bird comes back to normal from Salmonella/Paratyphoid using the meds it will likely become an asymptomatic carrier of Salmonella.
 

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I would have to look online for a conversion as well, but maybe try to get the 10 mg per day like the tablets only using your liquid. Sorry it took a bit to get back to you, I apparently shut off the email notification or it's in my spam. Hope the baytril helps!
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I would have to look online for a conversion as well, but maybe try to get the 10 mg per day like the tablets only using your liquid. Sorry it took a bit to get back to you, I apparently shut off the email notification or it's in my spam. Hope the baytril helps!
thanks. I found someone who did the maths for me. I started them on it 2 days ago. Fingers crossed because if it doesn't work, vet says euthanise, and same with any more that I find. I've had one bird 4 weeks and the other, two weeks, and both are worsening with neuro symptoms. I do think it has given perhaps a slight improvement, they both seem more active, but that could be coincidence or placebo affect on me!
 

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Hopefully the improvement you see will only continue to get better with the baytril. If the bird does get better I would run him on it until no symptoms exist. At the 2-3 week point I would maybe give him the recommended dose of doxybird as well, I think its 3 days, to make sure he doesn't pick up a yeast infection in their crop. I'll keep checking back to see how progress is going.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Hopefully the improvement you see will only continue to get better with the baytril. If the bird does get better I would run him on it until no symptoms exist. At the 2-3 week point I would maybe give him the recommended dose of doxybird as well, I think its 3 days, to make sure he doesn't pick up a yeast infection in their crop. I'll keep checking back to see how progress is going.
Unfortunately the progress I think was my wishful thinking. I don't think they're getting better. I'll give them one more day, but I'm not seeing any real improvements and one of them, I call it "Exorcist Bird" because of it's 360 degree upside down head maneuvre. Perhaps this is PMV after all. I'm going to contact the pigeon FB group in my vicinity and see if anyone will take them. I can't keep them, especially now one of my other animals is in palliatve care mode. Otherwise it's euthanasia. They are hardly living their best lives right now. On the plus side, I haven't seen anymore cases for a week. Thanks again
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
That may be so but from everything I read, they're not releasable, they can still have neuro issues down the track. It's terrible for them. But I can't keep them



Just hold on for another 3 or 4 weeks. Mine was at her worst by week 6 and then started improving.
 

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Hi,
I'm not new to this forum but new to this situation.
One of 'my' feral flock today, he was picking up pellets and tossing back his head to try and eat them. I wondered if he might have canker or another issue as I am currently treating a pidge for canker (wish her luck) and she can't swallow properly and I haven't managed to catch her husbird yet, so I initially I thought this bird might be the husbird of the hen I have as he was with her when I caught them and he looked a little ill, too, though not as bad and I didn't manage to catch him.

Anyway, today's bird, he would then turn in a circle and then do the same thing (pick up a pellet and toss back his head) then turn in a circle. He was, however, suceeding in getting pellets in, despite his method.
It looked totally neurological to me so I came here to try and figure out what it might be, and of course PMV comes up as a possible cause. I also noticed that he let me near him; some of the birds do that as they know me, but also sick birds don't fly away as quickly as the others so I figured something's wrong with him and I also know neuro animals can sometimes lose their fear to a degree.

I lured him into my 'trap' and got him quite easily, though I let him eat some, first, which he was doing ok with.

At the moment he's undergoing 'quiet' time while he gets over the shock of being caught (I will examine later - weight and for canker, and he should have a full crop at the moment) but apart from the neurological signs, he looks quite healthy (fairly sure it's a cock bird), no fluffing up, no signs of anything respiratory and he was foraging the same as the others, at the same pace, just doing these weird movements. I don't yet know what his droppings are like.

So my questions are: his neuro signs, are these early or late signs of the disease? Is it possible he's already had it and got over it and this is his new' normal'?
Is it always fatal?
Am I better off taking him for euthanasia now or is he worth rehabbing? (I am always up for helping them)?

I will defo take to vet for Dx but in terms of rehabbing for PMV, if it is that, what can I expect?

I read a thread that suggested B vitamin deficiency but I doubt that. Assuming he is coming regularly to my place to feed, he would be eating mostly pigeon pellets (sometimes chicken when I can't get the pigeon ones) both of which are fortified. (If he is not a regular and eating at McDonalds like some other local birds, then yes, he could be deficient - I have so many birds there's a only a handful I recognise).

All responses gratefully received

Donna
Now I have had experience with Canker I can talk.

If your pigeon has canker I would take him to a vet as soon as possible. The vet should give you Vetafarm Ronivet-S (antibiotic) to put in his food or water (1/2 teaspoon to 1 litre of water) after you isolate him in a cage for treatment. Don't waste any time as your bird can die from canker (If it is canker). This treatment should be given for a week. I lost 4-5 pigeons to canker, but have saved 4 or 5. I noticed they were starving and fed them with Weet Bix which seemed to work very well.

After the week of treatment you should give him a probiotic which you can also get from the vet.

After that treatment, and assuming he has recovered, put 5ml per 1 litre of apple cider vinegar (ACV) in his drinking water or food for a week, then let him rest for a week. After the week rest, put 5ml per 1 litre of ACV in his drinking water or food and continue that pattern. Apple cider vinegar (used regularly=every two weeks) is a preventive for canker. Canker is worse in warm weather. The best apple cider vinegar will contain "Mother" on the label.

That's all I know about pigeons so far.

Good luck!
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Now I have had experience with Canker I can talk.

If your pigeon has canker I would take him to a vet as soon as possible. The vet should give you Vetafarm Ronivet-S (antibiotic) to put in his food or water (1/2 teaspoon to 1 litre of water) after you isolate him in a cage for treatment. Don't waste any time as your bird can die from canker (If it is canker). This treatment should be given for a week. I lost 4-5 pigeons to canker, but have saved 4 or 5. I noticed they were starving and fed them with Weet Bix which seemed to work very well.

After the week of treatment you should give him a probiotic which you can also get from the vet.

After that treatment, and assuming he has recovered, put 5ml per 1 litre of apple cider vinegar (ACV) in his drinking water or food for a week, then let him rest for a week. After the week rest, put 5ml per 1 litre of ACV in his drinking water or food and continue that pattern. Apple cider vinegar (used regularly=every two weeks) is a preventive for canker. Canker is worse in warm weather. The best apple cider vinegar will contain "Mother" on the label.

That's all I know about pigeons so far.

Good luck!
Thanks but these birds do not have canker. I have a 3rd that does, she's on the mend. These birds are neuro symptoms, probably PMV as enrofloxacin is not helping them.
 
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