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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
As you know, for a while I've been wondering what could possibly be wrong with my Moody goose. At first, people suspected she was slow to grow, and therefore she was smelly and low weight. Then, it came to genes... Could she have been, instead of an embden, a roman/embden cross? And perhaps her poop smelled bad because of some genetic factors; she did come from a large farm, after all. Diet came into play as well, and I tried various different foods but found none to be successful in ridding her of her scent. It was only in the past few weeks that I started to notice that Moody was pooping blood. It had happened once or twice in the past, but was due to a change in food, most likely, and subsided in a day or two...

Her feathers are in terrible quality and falling out every day now. She's also shedding some little skin particles and shafts of feathers, which I find is common in molting birds, and so I assume it is just her second molt. Still, after putting her on Metronidazole for 7 days, the blood went away for 2, maybe 3 days... And now has returned.

I've noticed it looks like there are 'chunky' pieces of blood in her poop, and also on and in her vent. The ones on her vent are black, but are obviously bloody, especially when squeezed, but the ones that she poops out are perfectly red. Less blood in the poop today, but still blood, and those strange chunky, fleshy pieces of it.

Her behavior is fine. She's gained about a pound since she started metronidazole. I was going to refill her prescription and continue on the dose, until I get paid in 6 days, when I could take her to the vet again and have a bacterial swab done.

Eating fine, as usual...
Wreaking havoc, as she typically does...

I've read that Coccidiosis causes this 'clot-like' blood in the poop. But, I've also read that Coccidiosis is severe, causes sudden deaths, a 'tucked appearance' and depression... None of which she has.

Does anyone know about proper dosages of Metronidazole for a 14 pound goose...? Also, does anyone know about bacterial infections in geese or other poultry? My vet said if it was not Giardia, it was likely that... But then again, I don't trust any of the vets here. I don't think they even have X-Rays. I'd like to get an X-Ray done just to make sure she hasn't swallowed anything... But yet again, the operation would be so stressful and so expensive if she did, that I would literally die... And maybe her, too. In any case, I don't think she swallowed anything peculiar.

Yet again, the symptoms are:
→Bloody poop (little pieces of fleshy bits of blood, sometimes some bubbles as well)
→Diarrhea, less smelly than before, but still possessing an unpleasant odor
→Terrible feather quality and feather loss
→Slow growth; slow weight gain. She has not lost weight, but as she got this illness, whatever it is, at an early age, she has not grown properly.

This would, I figure, imply some sort of parasite or infection of the intestines that does not allow proper nutrient-absorption...

Any thoughts? :(

Vasp
 

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Have you wormed her? Did the vet check her for Coccidia?
I still have not been able to talk to Deb.
How old is she?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
Well, she went through with a dose of piperazine, but did not, it would seem, have roundworm. The vet sent a fecal to the lab, and no eggs were found. Would you suggest doing another fecal test? Moody is 7 months old now. She's had this problem for quite a few months. The vet did not check for Coccidiosis... Exactly how do you do that?

I was thinking... Moody's problems seem to escalate in severity and then improve again on a regular basis. This, apparently, is a symptom of Giardia--it gets worse, and then it gets better; sometimes it will even disappear, but it's still there.

Vasp
 

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Well, she went through with a dose of piperazine, but did not, it would seem, have roundworm. The vet sent a fecal to the lab, and no eggs were found. Would you suggest doing another fecal test? Moody is 7 months old now. She's had this problem for quite a few months. The vet did not check for Coccidiosis... Exactly how do you do that?

I was thinking... Moody's problems seem to escalate in severity and then improve again on a regular basis. This, apparently, is a symptom of Giardia--it gets worse, and then it gets better; sometimes it will even disappear, but it's still there.

Vasp
There are other kinds of worms besides round worms and just because she was wormed once doesn't mean she doesn't have worms now. Worm eggs don't always show up in the fecals. I would have another fecal done. The fecal needs to be as fresh as possible. Coccidia should show up in a fecal exam.
Just a feeling...stop giving her pineapple and cut back on the fruit.
What did the vet say was found in the fecal last week? Was the fecal also set to a lab for analysis?
I will be able to talk to Deb today. I know she is scheduled to be at the clinic.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
The vet said she didn't find anything abnormal in the fecal. The fecal was sent to a lab for analysis, and nothing was found. Does that rule out Coccidiosis? Okay, so in 6 days:

→fecal examination
→bacterial swab test

Should come out to about $150 or so... Pretty pricey, but it can be done.

Today:

→refill prescription for Metronidazole ($13)
I'm just wondering, how much longer should I have Moody on Metronidazole? Another week to see how it goes, or just another few days?

Cheers,
Vasp
 

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No more pineapple and little fruit..ok? Are you by chance giving her anything with bran in it?
 

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I just sent you a private message.
 

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I'm sorry to hear Moody isn't doing too great. It must be very frustrating for you both. I hope you can pin down exactly what's wrong, and that she recovers quickly. Sounds like she is in the right hands. :eek:
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Thank you, Maryjane. I'm always worried about Moody. She's my little girl. The little balls of stuff that she poops out look odd... Sort of like pieces of bloody flesh. I hope there isn't something severely wrong with her organs or something. She only poops blood when she's under stress, like in the bath tub (which makes her a bit stressful). But right now, her whole butt is covered in blood, and her beak has blood stains on it from preening, and she's shaken blood all over the bath tub. She looks almost like the terrible victims of fois gras, only to a lesser degree!

Oh, if it's something I've done, I'll never forgive myself... My poor Moody... I just hope she pulls through. I would be so devastated...

Vasp
 

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I just sent you a PM.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
moody's possibilites
  • symptom: bloody diarrhea
    →bright red in color
    →some is clotted
    →only apparent when in stress
    →comes and goes, more or less

    what this means:
    →bright red, 'frank' blood in the stool comes from areas of the intestine
    that are close to the cloaca, like the ceca area of the intestinal tract.

    →clotted blood basically means that the blood has been there for a certain
    length of time. Clotted blood is a common sign of Coccidiosis.

    →if blood is apparent only when the bird is under stress, it must mean that
    there is no active, internal bleeding occurring in the intestines. If there was,
    the bird would be pooping blood at all times.

    →blood coming and going can be due to the complication causing the blood,
    or just the factor of stress. The bird may be more stressed one day and less the next.

    Coccidiosis symptoms:
    →bloody diarrhea with often clotted blood
    →blood is bright red as Coccidia attacks the Ceca.
    →listlessness
    →sudden death

    Coccidiosis, in most cases, is rather severe and often acts quickly.
    However, in more chronic, less severe cases, it can go on for quite a long time.

    what this means for moody:
    →there is a distinct possibility that Moody has chronic Coccidiosis

    why the fecal MAY not have shown coccidia:
    →the fecal was taken from her at about 12:00PM or earlier, and arrived at
    the lab that evening. It was much too old.
    and
    →not all samples will show the coccidia.

    what we're going to do for moody:
    →get a fresh fecal sent to the lab at the end of the month (pay day)
    →limit stress
    →purchase probiotics from the health food store in case they help her


    Note: This is only a guess and we will not take action to treat her until we have proof
    from a veterinarian that she indeed has Coccidiosis. She may. And yet, she may not.



    Cheers,
    →Vasp
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
It seems that the Capillary worms would make sense, as for Moody's symptoms. It would also make sense, because they're so thin, small and 'hair-like' that they can hardly be seen. I haven't been able to see anything in Moody's poops, that at least I can identify. Of course, the vet will have the final say. I don't know where/if I could get Flubenvet, which is apparently the most common, safe and effective wormer to use. We only have two feed stores here, and I'm not sure if they sell Flubenvet or if they even sell grit.

"Capillaria: Capillary worms (hair worms) can live in the esophagus and crop, in the small intestine or in the caecum. They are hair-like and can hardly be seen in crop or gut contents. They can affect all types of birds but are usually most damaging in game birds. General symptoms are droopiness, weakness, and emaciation. Intestinal capillary worms cause severe inflammation, blood-stained diarrhoea, anaemia and death, especially in young birds. They affect chicken, pigeons, guinea fowl, turkeys, ducks, geese, pheasants, other birds."

http://www.smallholder.co.uk/mostpopular.var.976875.mostviewed.worms_in_waterfowl_and_poultry.php
 

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Did you read the part about dietary needs and grit?
I really think Moody has more than one issue which are contributing to her condition.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Yes, I did. It's a good article and I'll be sure to print it out and bring it to the vet. I think she already knows what geese need to eat though. She didn't seem stupid about geese or anything, but she probably just assumed that she had grit. We don't even know if we can buy large enough sized grit. I suppose most people don't care if poultry have grit, as they just want to eat the birds in the end anyway, but calcium in oyster shell is important because they also want to eat the eggs.

Sigh.

But truthfully, Moody doesn't eat much fruit at all. When she was eating fruit with her medicine, she was pooping less blood and having less diarrhea, so I don't think that is the main concern. Also, I'm sure that her pellets and corn aren't the best there could be (there is no market for waterfowl here, no specialized waterfowl feed, not even scratch or grains to buy at our feed stores) but I doubt they would cause blood in her poop. But something has to be causing the blood, right? I'm thinking the grit could be a pretty big issue. The pieces of corn that she eats are sometimes pretty jagged. It causes me to think that perhaps they are cutting up her intestines, and due to the fact that she doesn't have grit, she isn't digesting her food properly and is therefore not getting enough nutrients.

Would that be a possibility?
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 · (Edited)
All right, I have some thoughts here...

Moody had an incredibly smelly poop today. Just like she was having before she was put on the medication. I hadn't even realized how gooey and smelly her poops were before the medication.

Here's what I think.

Moody has Giardia. That's what I think.
I think that the medicine helped her a great deal. The blood went away for a while and the poop stopped smelling and had a way better consistency. Of course, with Giardia, you need to have a pretty large dose of Metronidazole for a pretty long amount of time, and may even need to continue it. Those tricky Protozoa!

But the reason she has blood in her poop, yet no dire symptoms...?

Well, the rolled corn.
The prickly, jagged edges of them can't be properly digested by her system.
While they're going through her intestines, due to the lack of grit in her diet, they are not ground up well enough and cause a bit of stress on the intestines. They have to stretch to let them through and sometimes even get cut.

And the reason she poops MORE blood when she's stressed out...?

Well, we all know that when birds are afraid, they poop more. They basically get diarrhea. When she's in the bath tub, she's anxious. She's never liked it, so we're going to try limiting her time in there. However, as time wears on, and she gets less anxious and the blood slowly goes away. When people come in, there's more blood. When they leave, there is less.

So due to her stress, the food goes through her intestines more quickly--and because of the fact that she can't properly digest the food to begin with, now it's even worse. It leaves little scrapes in her intestines and on and just around her vent--in the lower regions of her intestines, more likely. This is why there is frank blood in her poop and why it's so red. Some baby chickens get the same thing, diarrhea with frank blood, due to cracked corn that they are having difficulties digesting.

'Frank blood will appear as bright red, thin lines mixed in or around the stool. The stool often appears to contain a lot of mucus. The intestines produce this to ease the passage of foods with pointy edges - like cracked corn.'


http://www.the-coop.org/wwwboard/discus/messages/5052/78.html


Update: Ugh! I can't believe I haven't seen this before or that my vet didn't notice this!

Vent gleet.
reddened vents, sometimes with whitish lesions, or powdery black to waxy black around the vent, foul-smelling, loose droppings.

Well, she has a reddened vent for sure. The vet noticed that.
She has waxy black things around and on her vent. They bleed. I noticed this quite a while ago. I thought it was peculiar.
She has foul-smelling, loose droppings. Very foul-smelling.

She seems to have all the symptoms of vent gleet. I always wondered where the black things on her vent came from.
I didn't hear it was a symptom of Giardia so I didn't know why they were there. But this would explain it.

For the blood in the poop, like you said, Charis, she probably has more than one problem.
The blood in the poop, I say, is still caused by the lack of grit and the pointy edges of her corn.

Today we're going to buy her a lot of things. I'm going to bring up the possibility of Vent Gleet to my family and to the vet.
 

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Hi Vasp,



The pointy-edges-of-Corn, soon become soft and pliable in her Crop.


One can demonstrate this easily, by putting a few of these Kernals in one's mouth, and, finding them to soon soften and become chewy, or, if allowed to soak longer, become quite soft indeed.


Too, her Mastications occur in her Gizzard, where, with or without Grit, the hydrated Foods, Seeds and so on, are mashed into pulp by the contraction of the Organ's interior Horney 'plates'...so, I would not expect any Grains physical configurations when 'dry', to still posess any potential for mechanical irritations, once having passed through the processes of her Gizard, to be digested by strong Stomach Acids, and, in liquid form, passed on to the intestines.



Now, far as my own sense of all this is able to see...

Coccidiosis DOES seem to fit well with the symptoms and signs you describe.

Possibly, Giardia does also.


And, the general picture to me, does suggest some long standing, chronic Enteritis of some kind, possibly, more than one going on...and maybe some secondary infections, whether systemic or localized, from bacteria entering open lesions or infections of other kinds.


I think the only value an "X-Ray" might have, aside from how the Vet can flatter his financial strategy on how what should be a Three or Ten or at most, a Fifteen Dollar ( AT a good profit at that, as far as what the real costs of doing it are, ) proceedure translates into an $85.00 one, just 'cause he can exploit the situation like that and get away with it...is, that if Moody has a foreign and "metallic" object caught in her Gizzard, then, if Metallic, it will show nicely on the X-Ray.And almost nothing else would show well, nor would any other kind of material likely be able to entrap in her Gizard, so...


Chronic Intestinal infections, or, infections and the by-product toxins of Parasites or of inimical Micro-Organisms, could seriously effect the actual Nutrition she is able to extract from her diet, as well as poisoning and intoxicating her system.


If she would drink it, making medium Strong Teas of 'Barberry' and 'Goldenseal', could definitely aid her, along WITH the specific Pharaceuticals, as a concurrent regimine.


Possibly Cranberries also might be very good, and, would do no harm anyway.

I do not know if a Salmonella could also be some of the problems here, but, someof me thinks it might or could be...so, that is something maybe to brood on also.


She might also have a Unurinary Tract infection which has been concurrent, chronic, and could also be a contributing source of 'sluffing' or Blood...I would guess...



Anyway, those are my thoughts as of this moment..!


Good luck..!


Phil
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Hi Vasp,


If 'Vent Gleet' seems like it fits some of the picture, and, as a 'Yeast' infection, it is treatable with 'Medistat' or 'Nystatin', then I would think, by all means, "Yes!" go for the Gusto! - and treat it, since these Medicines do not interfere with the others, and, will definitely benifit her if she does have the Gleet. And if she has Yeast infections at her Vent, probably she has them going on elsewhere also, which are not seen topically.


As we know, whatever the primary illness or problem may have been, successive and concurrent problems, infections or opportunes can often occur when the Immune System of the Bird ( or anyone else ) is depleted or tired or somehow was run down from not getting the initial illness out of the way...so a viscious circle is entered then, where multiple illnesses or conditions get going...


Phil
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Discussion Starter · #19 · (Edited)
Well, I bought her some probiotics from the health food store with acidophilus and bifidum, as well as quite a few things... Was unable to find gravel, so I bought some sand that has some gravel mixed in, some little pieces of them. I've read that sand is good to be mixed in with gravel, is this so? Of course, I also bought her triticale, barley, carrots, sprouts, spinach, raspberries... My mother, however, pointed out that sprouts are often associated with E.Coli. Should I or should I not take the risk and feed her the sprouts? I really think she'd love them.

Anyway, now they you point it out, it probably isn't the corn that's the problem. I'd also suspect a chronic form of Coccidiosis or even Giardia, though the treatment sort of had an 'on, off' effect on her. But vent gleet really really fits the bill, from what I can see of her vent. She's even lost quite a few feathers around her vent since it started to get swollen. I'm going to see if I can find Nystatin or Medistat at our local farm supply for over-the-counter drugs... If not, I'll have to talk to my vet about a prescription for it.

We're getting a fecal done in due time, even a few fecal samples (the freshest, smellyist, even bloodyist I can get) to see if they find anything this time. Capillary worms, Giardia and Coccidiosis are all possibilities... I'd also like to have a bacterial swab done... That would probably show the vent gleet if she has it, but I'm going to try to give her a treatment if I can anyway... Just because it seems like a good possibility and it's not harmful.

So, in any case, I suppose all I can do now is keep her fed on good things, supply some sand, give her the probiotics, try to keep her as stress-free as possible, seek out Nystatin or Medistat (would any other anti-fungals work if those aren't available? But those are the safest, aren't they?) and get fecals done in 3 days or so. So... by Tuesday or Wednesday, I hope to bring in a fecal.

If the nystatin doesn't work, I'll have to get a bacterial swab, another fecal... And if all else fails, hey, an X-Ray could reveal a good few things, even if it means a 2 hour drive... There is a great avian scientist a few hours from us, and if all else fails I'd love her to have a look at Moody.


Thank you for all of your advice, Phil. It's great. But, are the sprouts okay for her to eat? I don't even know if there is a brand.. It says, "Fresh deli sprouts", mustard greens, radish, clover and something else... They look okay, but you never know.


Regards,
Vasp

Update: Okay, no nystatin, medistat or any anti-fungals at our only big farm supply store... A lot of other things, but nothing of that sort. I suppose I'll have to talk to my vet about a prescription for nystatin... And the earliest I can is on Monday.
 

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Hi Vasp,


For the price of Lunch, or Lunch for Two, you can get a BIG 'Jar' ( well, like a Cup Full or so ) of Medistat powder from various Pigeon Suppliers, and, if ordered on-line now, with expedite shipping, would be to your Door on Tuesday. And be a MUCH larger amount than a perscriptiomn would be, and still end up costing less most likely, even with the shipping ( which would be many 12 bucks or 15 tops for next day Air ).

You just mix the 'Medistat' with Fruit Juice or Liquid, for the dose you are going to let her have, and make more the next day, so it is easy and keeps indefinitely.


Far as I know, 'Nystatin' and 'Medistat' are the safest.

Possibly Pidgey will look into your thread, and let us know if that fits his recollections also.

'Sprouts' or other fresh Veggies, can be topically made safer by immersion or light spraying, via any number of safe, Organic and Fruit Peel based products, made for Vegans to use for cleaning Greens, sold at any Health Food Store...


But, the "e-coli" scares ( and dangers ) we have heard about, tend to have been endemic to the Plant's interior or circulatory systems, where topical addresses would not effect a solution.

Personally, I would not worry about it...



'Grit' for Ducks anyway, and, probably for Geese, would tend to be those small roundish Pebbles they elect casually and incidentaly, while Graing, according to how many they feel they need at that time.

But, if you are thinking of getting an X-Ray, just to see for sure if she has anything "Metallic" lodged in her Gizard, then wait on the ('real') Grit till after you know.


You would NOT want her to have any 'Grit' if she does have some Metal caught or puncturing or otherwise stuck in her Gizard, and, most likely, she does not have any such thing, but, I just wanted to mention it in connection with what would be about the only use I can think of for an X-Ray at this time.


An X-Ray could show some subtle and useful things TO a sufficiently practiced Eye, familiar with Goose interiors, as for showing swelling or suspicious and un-usual density of Organs and Bones for example.

But, would your Vet be familiar enough with phantom siloheuttes of a Goose's internal Organs, to make any useful evaluations or pronouncements, if he even could tell that any were swollen or more dense or faint that normal? And, probably, some of them ARE swollen, or more dense or faint than normal too, because of her illness...so...

Grit Wise -

What I used to do for my Duck, was I just got a Mug full of roundish Granite and Jasper and other definitely "Rock" Pebbles, hand picked from the gravel in the parking lot here, and, I washed them well, soaked them in 20 percent Bleach-Water for a day, rinsed them, and set them into a shallow pan of Water, and she loved it, spotted them right away, and ate five or six or something right off the Bat.

Then I washed the not-eaten ones again and put them aside, presenting 'new' ones once a week or so, where she would eat however many she liked, deliberately, according to how many she felt she needed. And represented the previously rejected ones after a good washing.

These were roundish Gravel Rocks that were about the sie or bulk of small to medium Blueberrys.

She did not want smaller ones than that, and did not want larger ones than that, so after a little observation and experiment, that was my appreciation, and the ones she did not wish to eat, I tossed back into the parking lot.

Any place which sells Landscape Materials, or Concrete ingredients will have Gravel Piles, and likely would give you a few pounds for free, especially if they knew it was for your Goose.


Phil
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