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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi all good people,
haven't called in for a while........looking for some advice regarding a sick feral pigeon I have caught yesterday morning.

First and very obvious signs that alerted me were:
Trouble flying.....wings flapping while on the ground...un-coordinated, puffed up and sitting away from other birds. Was easy to catch.......
I think it is around 4 months old.
A closer look revealed: Deep green and watery droppings, smelly, soiled vent, looks tired....yet alert when handled, eyes look clear, also clear and clean inside beak, but easy to feel the breastbone pretruding. Bit on the skinny side.
When I hold it in my hands it does not feel cold (even though that's what I had expected).
I let it be for a day in a warm and quiet corner in my bathroom.
I left the cage door open and provided seeds and water.
After work today I wasn't sure if it had anything to eat or drink while I was away, so to make sure that it does not dehydrate I gave it some water with salt and sugar via syringe and fed it some seeds by hand. While I was doing that I could clearly hear noises comig from the bird that sounded excactly like a noisy tummy in humans......
I have not seen it fly, but I found droppings on top of the sink, can't tell yet what the situation is on that.
I've got some meds if needed, Baytril Tabs 50mg (had them for my cat).......could grind it into powder.....but how much do I need to administer for a bird?
Also have some Clavulox 50mg antibiotics tabs (Amoxyclav, Noroclav), again how much of it per dosage?
Should I continue force feeding?

What are your thoughts on this?

Thanks & Cheers
 

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I would start the baytril right away. Pop a little less than quarter of a tablet down his throat. Dose for adult is 5-10mg a day, so 1/4 would be 12.5mg ......just scrape off a little bit making it closer to 8-10mg.
Do you have a 'gentle' worming med? Like pyrantal? If so, I would give him a little less than a normal dose.
Just make sure he's warm and hydrated...a dash of salt and sugar in his water.
Symptoms could be a few things....but without fecal samples (impossible today), I would start with 'bacterial' and worms. Possibly coccidia also.......do you have any 'sulfa' drugs?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks for your quick reply Msfreebird

Just finished another feeding session with defrosted warm green peas.
The little poop is quite alert and interested in what I'm doing, not afraid at all.

I will start the Baytril right now........worming med for birds not available at all, no vet in town, (only dog & cat worming tabs available in supermarket).
I never heard of Sulfa drugs, but I will find out more tomorrow.

Yup, done the salt & sugar in the water.

I will take the bird to work tomorrow so I can feed it in between times.
I will update on progress later.

Thanks & Cheers
 

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If it starts to twist it head backwards,take it to a Vet.
PMV1 virus,is in Victoria.
Why would it need to go to a vet ?
PMV is a virus and not treatable with antibiotics, so all a vet in Australia would do is PTS when it is not nessessary.
From whats been described, theres absolutely no evidence of PMV so far so why try to cause panic to a caregiver when it isnt nessessary.
If the bird did have PMV all it needs is to be isolated from other birds till the virus sheds and more care from the caregiver as in making sure it is hand fed & hydrated if it cant eat & drink on its own.
 

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I can see your not in Australia
We are trying to track this Virus.
Up until 3 months ago we did't
have this virus & we have no
vaccine, as at this time & we are
trying to build a case, to get the
government,to ok to have the vaccine
brought in.
In the cases of the birds that have caught
this virus & there has been 100's that have died,
 

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I can see your not in Australia
We are trying to track this Virus.
Up until 3 months ago we did't
have this virus & we have no
vaccine, as at this time & we are
trying to build a case, to get the
government,to ok to have the vaccine
brought in.
In the cases of the birds that have caught
this virus & there has been 100's that have died,
We are aware of the outbreak of PMV in Australia, But I believe what Quazar is saying is that there is no evidence of that in 'this' bird yet.
The symptoms he is describing, so far, sounds like bacteria/salmonella or possibly coccidia.
Best to start treatment for symptoms, support and watch for further symptoms. :)
With a PMV 'scare', a vet will automatically PTS
 

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I can see your not in Australia
We are trying to track this Virus.
Up until 3 months ago we did't
have this virus & we have no
vaccine, as at this time & we are
trying to build a case, to get the
government,to ok to have the vaccine
brought in.
In the cases of the birds that have caught
this virus & there has been 100's that have died,
I'm well aware of that, all I'm saying is vets in Australia dont treat "feral" pigeons at the best of times, and with the current situation, any "friendly" vets will be even less likely to, and even more likely to PTS.
The virus itself doesnt kill the birds, but the effects on the birds nervous system causes it difficulty in eating & drinking which in turn allows other illneses to contribute to the birds starvation and eventual death.
I appreciate the tracking of the virus but so far this bird has shown NO signs of it. If it does then there is still no need for it to be PTS so hence the caution of taking it to any vet without checking their protocol first.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
Here is what's been happening:
given 10mg of Baytril / day for 2 days now.
Ordered Sulfa 3 and worming meds Avitrol Plus from an online vet supplier.
Pleasantly surprised that some meds are readily available without prescription, like Oxymav B, Coccivet and also selections of Tetracycline Powder e.g. Avicycline. Always happy to learn something new....lol.

Bird looks a little better, I'm still feeding peas, gave it around 20 yesterday afternoon and about an hour later it spit out 10.
It drinks when I hold the water dish close, happy with that.
Droppings have changed to solid form, yet still soft, going back to more liquid after a really good drink.
Still puffed up when sitting quietly, but alert and interested when I feed it.
Warm to the touch, good.

Using common sense rather than knowledge, after observations, I do not believe the bird is infected with PMV.
No signs of it being the case.
I am in the OUTBACK of SA, I'm sure the virus would go through all of OZ's major cities first before it takes over small country towns like ours.

***Dear macka: Please read my comments again, I am not in a "vet" situation.
So there is no need to tell me to bring the bird to one.
Rest assured that I will give it my best to try to make the bird better.
All I need is some meaningful assistance from bird lovers/experts who are kind enough to do just that......
Msfreebird, I appreciate it greatly!
Where exactly lies your expertise macka, I'm trying to figure that out since you hit my posts in Feb. 2011??
But now enough of that..........I got a bird to worry about and with some kind help from experts it might just come good again....
feeding time is near......

Thanks & Cheers
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Hi Quazar,

cold enough in Scotland now to put the stovies on, is it? lol

You might remember the 2 young birds (I called them Bill & Ben, but turned out they were hens) which I was able, with your help as well, to soft-release last February?
Well, both have been calling in as part of a small group of ferals for a while, sadly one of them I have not seen for months now.
But the one that does come is always in front of the others, almost under the verandah....looks great, very healthy and I'm glad it's doing o.k.

Just released another young pigeon I had for a couple of weeks, found it outside in the yard trying to hide under the car in the evening.
Still had the baby beak.
I could catch it easily, was very cold and had no weight at all.
Just like a feather. Fed it plenty and it's out with the rest of the flock now.
Doing great as well.......

Thought I give you a bit of an update on the old "case"....

Lang may your lum reek ;)
 

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Dear Kulaworld,

Its very nice to meet a fellow Australian who will actually do something to help a sick bird when it is suffering. I applaud you, and what a lovely looking pigeon she is too.

I take in a lot of sick feral pigeons up in Brisbane, and I see these green enteritis /puffed up symptoms a lot . The outlook can be pretty good for birds in this condition if you give them the right meds and support early enough. I've seen them bounce back within a week even.

I've come to understand that these symptoms are likely to be the result of several common pigeon ailments, perhaps triggered by starvation & stress, or some other underlying ailment such as worms etc. So its best to treat broadly and gently, if that makes sense.

Anyway, getting back to the meds you are using and ordering, these are all great choices in my opinion. The Baytril would be terrific for this pigeon if she has salmonella or ecoli, and also inflammation due to worms and other internal problems. It may be that having her on Baytril for 2 days has already started to clear up a significant part of her illness.

If you continue to like the results you're getting from the Baytril, you could potentially keep her on that, and give her some amprolium (coccivet) for the coccidia. In my own experiences, coccivet is a bit hard on a very sick pigeon and can make them vomit, so it would be best to give it by itself if possible (ie not with the baytril). If the pigeon is looking pretty weak and seems extremely thin, it may best to swap from the Baytril to the Sulfa-3 instead of using the coccivet, as it tends to be a milder way to treat for both coccidia and bacterial infection on a bird in very bad condition.

The only other common ailment I would treat for personally is canker, but its tough getting hold of canker meds without seeing a vet or ordering from the USA. I guess you'll have to see how she goes.....can you see any yellowish growths way back in her throat if you open up her mouth and shine a torch down there? Its worth having a really good look.
 

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Hi Quazar,

cold enough in Scotland now to put the stovies on, is it? lol

You might remember the 2 young birds (I called them Bill & Ben, but turned out they were hens) which I was able, with your help as well, to soft-release last February?
Well, both have been calling in as part of a small group of ferals for a while, sadly one of them I have not seen for months now.
But the one that does come is always in front of the others, almost under the verandah....looks great, very healthy and I'm glad it's doing o.k.

Just released another young pigeon I had for a couple of weeks, found it outside in the yard trying to hide under the car in the evening.
Still had the baby beak.
I could catch it easily, was very cold and had no weight at all.
Just like a feather. Fed it plenty and it's out with the rest of the flock now.
Doing great as well.......

Thought I give you a bit of an update on the old "case"....

Lang may your lum reek ;)
Well, thankfully this year (so far) has not been as cold as last year.
Was a slight "flurry" of snow up north yesterday, but glad no signs of it here yet.
Good to hear about Bill & Ben, Perhaps one of them has found its "Little Weeeed", hence the no show for so long.
I still see most of the rescues I've released although the flock tend to hang about the roof now and dont visit the garden as much cos neighbours have a rather annoying moggy, but they still come by when its safe.
Got 2 rescues at the mo, Charlie (who has a frozen wing so cant be released) and Tiny who was just a squeaker when found, but has become inseperable from Charlie, so kept him for company.
 

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Bird looks a little better, I'm still feeding peas, gave it around 20 yesterday afternoon and about an hour later it spit out 10.
It drinks when I hold the water dish close, happy with that.
Hi again Kulaworld,

I just wanted to add that regurgitating the peas could be something to keep a close eye on. If she's not getting enough food in this condition (and 10 or so peas isn't enough calories for such an ill bird), she won't make it. Also, the regurgitation could easily indicate internal blockage and/or inflammation, meaning she'll need smaller pieces of food. These blockages can be caused by worms, internal infection,canker or all of the above.

You might offer her a bowl of small seeds, say budgie seed with sunflower kernels (and linseed if you can get it)...small seeds only .

If she's not eating on her own, something that's been working for me lately when my rescues regurgitate is to force feed rehydrated cat kibble pieces for a few days. I give them a good wash after they rehydrate to get the extra salt out. Once the kibble pieces are rehydrated (I use friskies brand), I cut them in half, and feed 10-20 pieces /3 times a day. They are bit high in protein for long term use (26%) but some of my previous rescues have really craved soaked cat kibble in those first 4-5 days after they come in, and are still with me today. So I figure they knew what they needed when their life was on the cusp.

The other food I am using is what i call ``dog sausage''...I'm not sure what the proper name is for it exactly. It comes packaged like devon or salami, and is found refrigerated in grocery stores like woollies, or pet stores. I really like this food for sick pigeons because the proportions of grain/veges/protein are about right for a pigeon. Also, there is calorie information on the packages, so you can be sure that you are feeding the bird enough for its condition and weight per day. I usually cut off a sliver of this dog sausage, which weighs about 20 grams, and provides 40 calories..this is enough for a very sick pigeon for an entire day. I divide that sliver into 3, and then feed small pieces over 3 sessions...it works out to be around 10 pieces each session. Its much easier & quicker. I force fed a rescued pigeon for over 3 weeks this way because it couldn't keep down its seed or digest it, and it fully recovered.

I think because the dog sausage & rehydrated cat kibble are processed foods, they break down easily and sick pigeons can digest them without throwing them up, compared to seeds , corn,and peas.

Anyway, i hope I didn't blabber on too much, and that some of this info helps a bit.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
That's a grand idea Bella_F,
and if I have something plenty of, it's Friskies!!
Just never accurred to me to feed it to sick pigeons.........
I know these dog sausages, I can get them in the shop here.

I have a 20kg bag of "pigeon mix" from a fodder supplier and added extra wheat and millet.

Birdie has not regurgitated any more food, I feed it sitting in my lap and when I drop a seed, especially wheat,
it now picks it up by itself.
Starting yesterday, I've been feeding soft peas with an assortment of dry seeds, when done I offer water and it will drink as well.

Now when sitting on the floor it will flap it's wings a few times and it shows some interest in the surroundings.
It is becoming more lively.
It also started preening it's feathers. Great to see.

I will start feeding it some rehydrated Friskies as well to boost diatery intake.

Hopefully I will receive the bird meds on monday to start treatment.

I looked down it's throat, hubby holding the torch, couldn't see anything wrong there.

Thanks for the tips Bella.....just keep on talking, I'm a keen listener, what helps me, helps the bird. :)

Thanks & Cheers
 

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Dear Kulaworld,

That's really hopeful news, thanks for the update :)

May I suggest that when you start feeding the soaked cat kibble & begin worm treatment with the Avitrol plus, you could probably remove the dun peas, corn and larger seeds from the pigeon mix....just in case you have to deal with worm blockage due to the worms dying off.

I quite like Avitrol Plus now that I've used a few times. If you read the fidos.com website, the makers of avitrol plus, they warn you about worm die off causing internal blockages and death within 2 days, and also vomiting. But I haven't seen anything like that happen to the very sick birds I used it on. I've used it on magpie babies with gape worm and pigeons so far. I have been really happy with it. I should add, though, that with the baby magpie, it was nearly dead- it couldn't even stand. It lungs and throat were infested with the worms. So I divided up the daily dosage into quarters and dosed 4 times over the day to watch how he was reacting to the wormer and slow down worm die off. Amazingly, he went from almost dead to running around the house within 3 days. I had him on Amoxicillin to reduce internal inflammation and infection too. He can't fly yet and digestion is still painful/difficult for him. But I thought that was a good result from Avitrol plus.

So good luck with the wormer and sulfa -3.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 · (Edited)
:D Good news update on the wee pigeon.
I am happy to say that it's health has been improving over the last few days. It's getting it's strenght back and it's getting quiet cheeky.....
It never lifted off the ground for the first 5 days but on Wednesday it flew onto the carrier box and also made a resting place on the toilet lid.
Today it flew higher on to the shower curtain rail and is now resting on top of the shower screen.
It looks so much better now, not fluffed up all the time and it certainly does not want to spend all day in the box any more.

Finally!! The meds I ordered online arrived.......(instead of Express it was sent with Regular Post), can't win a coconut....

I gave it 1/2 tablet of Avitrol Plus.....I was able to weigh it properly on my kitchen scales, excactly 270g.
No signs of any adverse reactions to the Avitrol Plus, bird seems happy and is flying around.
I did not give it any Sulfa 3 yet, didn't know if I should administer while on the Avitrol?
It's still on Baytril though.....should I stop giving Baytril when I start the Sulfa?
I am also still feeding the dog sausage. Bird is now drinking on it's own.
If the cause of it's malaise is not worms I will get it back onto seeds, it's appetite has returned too!!

And how is your baby magpie doing Bella_F, what an awful worm infestation.....poor little thing.
Looks like you got on top of it, hopefully the bird will be getting stronger and fighting fit in time!

I better go and check if I still have a bathroom left.....the little poop might be re-decorating! LOL

Catch you soon
Cheers
 

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Hi Rosie,

That's really great work and excellent news! It sounds like a good antibiotic was what she needed, and now she's been wormed too.

Regarding switching the antibiotic, if it were me I'd probably leave her on the Baytril since it seems to be working for her. The Sulfa-3 is really for when the bird is very sick and you want to cover a lot of bases. But there are some things the Baytril will treat much better than sulfa-3. Baytril is very strong ie it clears out a lot of bacteria. So its not a bad idea to give your pigeon at least one or two doses of probiotic when you've finished the antibiotics (to replace the lost bacteria with good bacteria). You could use` yokult ' (acidopholus yogurt drink) for that. Also, I would personally give it Nilstat to avoid a fungal infection. You can get it from a chemist, and a dose anywhere between 0.2ml and 0.5 ml is safe.

PS . I PM'd you about the Flagyl

X bella
 

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The only thing sulfa drugs would be better for is coccidia.
I had a young bird with a severe case of coccidia, and had her on triple sulfa. It didn't take care of it ,so I had to switch her to Albon - which is my drug of choice for coccidia. Cleared it right up.
Baytril is very good for salmonella and e-coli.
Glad to hear he's doing better :)
 

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The only thing sulfa drugs would be better for is coccidia.
I had a young bird with a severe case of coccidia, and had her on triple sulfa. It didn't take care of it ,so I had to switch her to Albon - which is my drug of choice for coccidia. Cleared it right up.
Baytril is very good for salmonella and e-coli.
Glad to hear he's doing better :)
Hi Msfree bird! How are all your lovelies going? I really hope they are all well...it must getting towards winter over your way. I have been wondering how your babies from your lovely King and his little white mate turned out...any news?

Regarding the albon, I'm not sure if we can get it over here in Australia, not easily anyway (ie we'd have to order from overseas and hope it will get through customs). We don't have Sulmet either; both are sulfadimethoxine. The `Inca Sulfa -3' drug that we can get very easily in Australia is made of:

40 g/L sulfadimidine
40 g/L sulfamerazine
120 g/L sulfathiazole

From my reading, the main problem with the whole family of these drugs, the `sulfonamides'(ie albon, sulmet, and the triple sulfas) is that they interfere with coccidia parasite reproduction rather than killing the existing coccidia parasites. So in very advanced cases, they may not help quickly enough. This might also explain why the triple sulfa appeared not to work on your bird, and the Albon did work- it may be that it just took a lot of time for the sulfas generally to turn around the coccidia problem, becuase of how they work? Its just a thought anyway.

Because of this information, I've at times tried giving my sick rescues amprolium (coccivet) plus baytril or amoxicillin instead of fiddling around with sulfa drugs. Amprolium is by far the more effective drug for coccidia, in Australia anyway. But it is very hard on a sick bird- it very often causes vomiting. I've even seen it push a very ill bird right over the edge and kill it , so I only use it alone now ie not mixed with any other drugs, and in between feeds. It does seem very effective.
 
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