[John B]

I have a six year old pigeon with an undiagnosed illness. I originally posted his condition here on June 27.
Marina B made a suggestion to treat the bird for trich for a period longer than 2-3 days.

6-days of carnidazole & Nyastatin
6-days of metronidazole & Nyastatin
5-days of ronidazole & ampro (cocci med)

He is weak, fluffed up, not flying. Large watery puddle of clear urine with a little spaghetti like solids. At least one some times twice a day he will pass a watery clear poop with a pea size white jelly like mass. He is not eating and I am currently filling his crop with 20cc avian formula with crop needle, 2x a day.

Vet is at a loss. Fecal smears negative for trich, cocci, worms. Awaiting Chlamydia test results.

Any suggestions are appreciated, I love this little soul and I just spent $330 with the vet without any suggestions or hope.

Here is original post with pic. Not sure how to get pic smaller.

https://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/sick-pigeon-clear-jelly-like-poop-119450.html

https://www.pigeons.biz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=74426&stc=1&d=1593329783

 

[jonrf]

Somewhere, I saw an image of entirely clear jelly-like droppings were an indication of a parasite infection. I spent an hour trying to find the image and information online and could not find the image nor did it appear in a few avian veterinary manuals (even one on avian diseases). I would suspect inflammation of the intestines or a blockage or lesion. Unless there is some dark fecal matter or color to the droppings, testing the feces will be difficult. Blood analysis or imaging with X-rays may help to show more. I am sorry to not provide more suggestions, but you could use Mediworm or similar multi-dewormer, as if there is a complete blockage, no worm egg casings may be evident in the feces if there is a complete blockage and/or inflammation preventing anything to pass. I am sorry as I am at a complete loss too. I suggest contacting as many avian vets as possible, maybe one has seen this before. I hope your bird gets better and someone can truly help.

 

[jonrf]

The cloudy portion of the feces should be stained and looked at under a microscope to see what it really is composed of. I suspect an organism is to blame.

 

[John B]

Clear Jelly like poop

Thank you for your input Jonrf

The clear liquid was studied under a scope, but I have no clue as to how deep the vet went into studying the specimen. Due to lock down no pet owners were allowed in the vet office, I had to stay in the car and talk by phone.

The vet did hit on one of your observations.He also said With blockage and inflammation eggs are not always present in the stools. So he was aware I had recently given worm out (droncit), followed by Ivermect. He was suspicious of resistant nematodes and gave me panacur, 2x daily for three days. Its been three days and no change.

By the way, the ants devour the white pea sized globular jelly-like poopies

Again, I appreciate your input and you have inspired me to research the web a little deeper for worms/nematodes that would present these symptoms.

I have no other available avian vets hear on the Island, but there is a large group of breeders and racers, I'll reach out to them. Thanx

 

[jonrf]

You're welcome John. That's very odd about the ants. Usually ants go after a food they find attractive like either a high-protein, a high-fat, or a high-sugar content food source - all of which are generally absent in normal pigeon droppings. To me this would indicate a high-protein content from an organism, probably either alive or dead, decaying matter. Even a fungus could be to blame, and some ants will devour it, but not many species of ants. Perhaps iodine stain would reveal simple budding yeast under a microscope and also would reveal the almost transparent (hyphae) fungal structures if they are present. It could also be a super infection of a few different organisms (worms, bacteria and/or a fungus). Either three can look cloudy white in appearance. Treatment would then have to be combined. I hope the dewormer works, and if there is a blockage due to a high number of worms, it may take time to release the blockage or allow the worms to decompose enough to pass. Also, there are microscopic worms (strongyloides, etc.) that would decompose quickly. Perhaps there is an University biology or pathology department that might be willing to research the droppings for free or at little cost, as some do. The droppings may have to be cultured or analyzed using PCR/genetic sequencing. I hope and pray he gets better. Poor little guy.

 

[John B]

You have given me lots to digest.
Along With the wait for chlamydia is PCR/genetic testing. These tests were sent off to the university of Hawaii on Oahu.

Let me ask you your opinion: Zeke, my pigeon, has postured in such a way that it appeared he was having difficulty with a poopie (bowel movement). If the is an obstruction can I help things by giving him a little mineral oil?
Thought?

 

[jonrf]

John, you could try a little mineral oil soaked into a cotton swab and gently apply it inside the rear (cloacea). I would be reluctant to give it internally as he can accidentally inhale or aspirate it if administered orally. Mineral oil may only work on minor blockages and impactions, especially that of the proventriculus just before the gizzard, or lower stomach. It also will coat the intestines and block fluid absorption which can be bad also, especially when there may be a blockage. The ability to prevent absorption of water in the bowels is the main laxative action behind mineral oil, more than whatever lubrication it provides.

Perhaps a muscle relaxant designed to work on intestines would work best, granted it is safe for use in birds and dosed accordingly. Some people safely use psyllium husk laxative with birds, but dosing would be hard to guess. Colonic prokinetic agents like cisapride, ranitidine and nizatidine, may also work by stimulating intestinal muscles. See, https://www.merckvetmanual.com/phar...gastrointestinal-prokinetic-drugs-monogastric Interestingly enough, as mentioned on that page, was using a liquid suspension of erythromycin as a prokinetic agent, and it can be ued on pigeons. I would ask the vet about laxatives and prokinetic agents and which one would work best, and which one he may have on stock.

 

[John B]

Gottcha! I've got a lot to learn.

 

[jonrf]

No worries! A few years ago I was the one asking for help more than not. I just have been busy studying and honing my differential diagnostic skills as of late. Oh, I may avoid using fiber based laxatives as it may just feed whatever is growing inside poor Zeke. It was an afterthought a minute ago. I only want to help and not give bad advice. I hope Zeke gets better. Please keep us posted

~ Jonathan

 

[John B]

you are appreciated Jonathan

 

[John B]

Zeke

Hi Jonathan, here is an update on Zeke.

Zeke did eat a little on his own. I put some millet, peas, and hulled sunflower in a bowl and he did eat a little. Not much, but a good sign none the less.

Still watery poopies, but increased size of feces in the watery poopies.

after the 3 days of panacur, there has been no white jelly like globule substances in poopies

Other good news, the chlamydia/pcr lab work was negative. The Vet called today with results and I demanded a little of his time. He obliged. We talked for about 20mins and he was frustrated with himself for missing the boil on the pad of the foot (I've never seen the boils on the bottom of the feet, always the joints).
I shared with the Dr my concerns with to much/to little pedialite and he requested that I continue with the pedialite in the crop feeding of avian formula (20cc 2x day) and regular water through out the day. Just from his water bowl alone Zeke is drinking 4-6 oz.
The vet encouraged me to message his crop. I did notice that after his feedings the formula seemed to sit up high in the crop. Zeke actually tolerated my rubbing downward on his crop. Did this twice this evening for about 3 mins each time.

One of the reasons I did not suspect paratyphoid with Zeke is it was only 3 months ago that all my pigeon and doves were treated with trimethoprim (smz tmp). When symptoms occur I do rotate my antibiotics. I am particularly found of using trimeth as it will also tamp down cocci.

I will check on the Paratyphoid vaccine. I looked into the pox and PMV vaccine and it was, at the time, only available in large quantities.

I have been administering probiotics with the avian formula. What do you think about a liver detox. Any suggestions.

My mentor was also taking online veterinary course and finished up her work in Honolulu. She's to busy these days, but she shared a lot with me.

My wife and I have a small avian rescue center. Used to be very demanding, but we have slowed down . Our intentions have always been to nurture and care for the various species of birds and release them. Some we can't release. Some we release and years latter they come back. Some imprinted, such as the zebra doves and we were forced to keep in the aviary (these days I have gotten good at bringing up baby doves with little to no imprint). We have a blind dove and pigeon (wild birds here in hawaii often lack manganese). Recently we had a wild love bird come to us and he had paratyphoid. My wife treated him and kept him as a cage bird pet.

Currently we have many Java Finch, Zebra Doves, Japanese White Eyes, African Silver bills, turtle Doves, my five pigeons, Indu's (wife) love bird, and a 10 year old sparrow with angel wings. We also have two pet mynas that are free range and come and go as they please.

What pets do you have?

As for info. Oh hell ya. Anything you through at me I will graciously except. Thanks for the link to the merck manual link.

 

[jonrf]

Hi John, I'm glad he is eating better! And it sounds like he is getting his appetite back.

I am curious though about how much pancur he was prescribed and how long ago he was on it. It is a very potent drug and is easy to overdose, and 2x a day regimen is very risky. I ask because of your point you made about liver detox.

Pancur (fenbendazole) is a very potent drug, and overdoses sadly happen too often when miscalculated. Overdoses can affect white blood cell formation in bone marrow, damage the lining of the crop and the wall of the small intestines, and cause secondary infections, anemia, and potential death. It is very hard on the bird's liver. Fenbendazole is usually dispensed in a liquid that is 100mg/ml. An average 350g pigeon should receive a range of 0.1 to 0.2ml of fenbendazole once a day for 3 days. It should be avoided due to toxicity even at published or recommend doses. See, https://www.researchgate.net/public...enbendazole_Toxicity_in_Pigeons_Columba_livia

The jelly-like stools could also be from intestinal mucus, and can happen if there is a blockage. Ants do go after mucin.

Paratyphoid often will cause proventriculus inflammation initially, which will block food from entering the intestines. He also is drinking more than an average pigeon drinks, and that can be from the paratyphoid, being dehydrated, and also flushing out meds. A little crushed milk thistle seeds (silymarin) will do wonders helping his liver detox and flush out residual meds and bacterial endotoxins, but doing so on antibiotics will be somewhat counterproductive. A little fresh garlic juice in his water will be good as allicin will lesson inflammation, kill pathogenic bacteria, and help detox. It also has antiviral properties.

Your vet gave you good advice on using the electrolytes in the formula and allowing him to drink clean water to self regulate his sodium. I bet he was beating himself up for missing the boil in his initial exam, but it could have development since then, since boils often appear late during an infection. Also, massaging his crop is good advice especially if his proventriculus had or has inflammation. He could have been starving due to the blockage, making him weak and dehydrated, and unable to fight off the salmonella. The swelling should slowly go down like I said before. It is good that you noticed his crop not emptying

Starvation can also cause free radicals to build up, hence another good reason to detox and get his liver up to speed. He could also have a little flaxseed and safflower seeds as both have healthy Omega-3 fatty acids and other antioxidants.

How long ago did that wild bird come to you with paratyphoid?

The vaccine for multivalent paratyphus is a bit costly come to find out on Jedds.com and has to be kept cold during expedited 2-day air shipping. Maybe the vet can source it for a better price? I have read that even typhus vaccines can work against paratyphus, but I would have to dig into it further for effacy etc. The brand Jedds sell can be found at the manufacturer's site at http://www.arkolabs.com/pb/wp_6de3bd73/wp_6de3bd73.html

Wow, you do have quite the collection of birds! I didn't know you have a rescue center. I am considering going that route eventually and would like to apply for a wildlife rehab bird permit when I have the husbandry and means to go full time. I have just a few pigeons and a rescued African collared dove I saved from traffic. I also rescued a tame baby rabbit (domestic Belgium) from the city streets near LA, who I have here too. No one cared enough to list them as missing. Nor responded to my posts. They obviously landed in my path for a reason! I suspected my white African collared dove was an illegal dove release as she doesn't have a band like the ones sold to petstores.

In the past, I have rescued passerines (mainly Eurasian House sparrows), one was congenitally blind and had for several years. Years ago, I had more wild rescues. I rescued baby squirrels, freed bats from homes, saved a few mourning doves, robins, a cardnial hatchling, a tanager fledgling, and a cowbird fledgling - but had to send them to a wildlife center after initial care as they were orphans and injured. Fortunately, most of the aminals I come upon in need are the non-protected species - like they know haha.

Interesting to hear about the manganese deficiency on the islands. I didn't know that, but it makes sense with the pure basaltic lava. Mineral deficiency especially magnesium can cause angel wings, and recently there was a thread on this forum about a pigeon with that. I have had a wild house sparrow with hypocalcemia, but nothing beyond that fortunately. 10 years is a good old age for a sparrow!

I will definately have to set up something in the next day or two to share my collection. I'll have to message you directly with that.

~ Jonathan

 

[John B]

Zeke

Hi Jonathan,

Zeke's appointment with the vet was Wednesday 15th July, and I started Zeke on the panacur 16th. Dosage was .18, 2x day, for three days. Repeat after 10 days. The jelly like poopies have stopped with the last specimen being on Sunday July 19th.

The wild lovebird came to us seven maybe 8 months ago. He was quarantined for 6 weeks after treatment before he was put in a cage with close proximity of other caged pets. Even our rescues that end up in the aviary go through a quarantine process. You had mentioned a timeline of re-introducing a quarantined bird that was much longer than what we have been exercising. Its possible that I should re-evaluate my quarantine process as it would be devastating should I introduce my recovering birds too soon. With Zeke, I'm not going to put him back in the coupe as the other Pigeons were fighting with him, mainly his daughter.

As for the vaccines, I'm going to reach out to the breeders and racers here on the Island a see if they are willing to share the cost on pox, pmv, and paratyphoid.
Later Jonathan

Bye the way, are you located in the Ozarks?? Just curious. Ozarks are beautiful.

 

[jonrf]

Hi John,

6 weeks quarantine should be more than adequate. Most folks only do 10 days, so you're doing above and beyond what most do which is great. I only advised that timeframe for two weeks recovery and due to the fact that after vaccination it takes about four weeks for immunity to be as strong as possible. I only asked about the lovebird as I was trying to figure if that was a possible source of transmission since you used antibiotics on them all recently. It doesn't sound likely, but he shouldn't have gotten it so quickly - maybe he ate some wild bird droppings post antibiotics or some contaminated soil, and dropped his defenses being overstressed from being picked on. You are doing a fantastic job by the sounds of it with your birds, and with your use of caution!

I am however a tad worried though about the pancur dose, as what you gave should be 1x a day unless he is a giant pigeon breed (1-2kg). Doesn't sound like he had worms, as you should have seen them passed already in his droppings. I am worried that pancur can be too harsh and deadly, with little margin for dosing errors and toxicity. Ivermectin would be safer, and definitely Mediworm is. If I was a betting man, I would say he just had samonellosis (paratyphoid).

I live just south of the Ozarks, near the Ouachita range - quite picturesque and very simular. A nice, quiet peaceful area, and a perfect place to lay low during this whole pandemic thing. Where I used to live in California, they are having a real bad time with new cases. Hospital beds are all but full in the area I lived in. I recently had a few health issues and was hospitalized for a week. I am now back to full health, and fortunately I was here when it happened, and grateful that I moved.

I hope Zeke is feeling better and better, and eating more and more. Sounds like he is past the hurdle!

 

[jonrf]

I just found this older thread here on the forum about panacur:
https://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f27/toxicity-of-panacur-fenbendazole-18973.html

Interestingly mentions using Vitamin B12 to help in liver detoxification of panacur, and the toxicity of the drug etc.

 

[John B]

Panacur Toxicity

Hi Jonathan, tried to respond earlier, but busy day I think we are 4 or 5 hours behind you.

So I checked the links you provided and there is some horror stories.

Before I next administer the two week follow up of Panacur, I'll talk with the vet. Might need to back it down to 1 dose a day instead of two. Maybe for one day instead of three.Maybe lower dose. Don't know. After all, if Zeke had worms/nematodes the follow up would be for the eggs that might hatch within him, I'm guessing when I say that.

The vet said that he didn't see eggs in the fecal smear. I think the reason he chose Panacur is that he was aware that I had already given Zeke worm out (prazequantel) and followed up with evermictin. When prazequantel did not work (still passing white pea sized jelly like poopie and I did see a cresent shape worm, or rather larvae in his watery poop. I still have not id'd that dam worm/larvae ) I tried the ivermectin convinced Zeke had nematodes and not tape worm. So, after the Ivermectin, he still passed Jelly like poopies. After two week follow up of evermectin, still jelly poopies. The vets argument was that if the nematodes were high enough up in the digestive system both the lose worms and the eggs would get digested and thus would not show up in a smear. As we now know, no more jelly like poopies after Panacur. Also noteworthy: before worming him I noticed black poopies. I stopped all foods that might result in dark droppings (sunflower) and still black dropings. I suspected blood. This was before his watery poopies began. His poopies are a mess now, but not black anymore.

I'm still very concerned about a follow up dose of Panacur though. So,'ll I voice my concerns to the vet and see where it takes me.

Do you have a suggestion for an alternative?

Zeke is doing a little better today. Hopefully each day will be better.

Looking back at the three days of giving Zeke the panacur, he did go down hill faster. However, even before the panacur he had very watery poopies.

I had a little baby zebra dove come to us today. He was hanging out around the aviary and I simply reached down and picked him up. He has paratyphoid and puncture marks on his belly and wings. Probably from a rat (rather large species of Polynesian rats). Any how I cleaned his wounds and crop fed him avian formula and waited for a poopie sample. Couple hours later, there it was, definitely paratyphoid. We get a couple of paratyphoid and two or three trich birds each month, thats just the ones that come to us not including the ones that neighbors and friends bring. People think that Its mystical that the sick and injured birds seek us out for help. I see it a little more rationally and think that a sick or injured bird will be attracted to all the bird activity around our house. Like yourself, I except the fact that these little souls bdecome intertwined in our lifeline.

Thanks for the shake up on the Panacur, won't risk anything on my Zeke
Later

 

[jonrf]

No problem, I just heard the horror stories about it and thought it was worth the words of caution. The fact you saw black droppings was a sure indication of gastrointestinal bleeding. Also, what you saw could have just been a worm, but it they usually next to impossible to properly ID without a microscope and a good reference or two. And what your vet stated about the possibility of a infestation higher up the GI track was a good possibility. It would explain the lack of worms in the droppings, especially if they were soft-bodied worms like nematodes or trematodes. Still, panacur is very strong and I will have to check into alternatives later today. Yes, you are right, the following doses are for any drug-resistant egg cysts that later hatch.

About Zeke going downhill after the panacur. He was most likely was near starved and weakened before any treatment, and that drug is very harsh on his systems, and not to mention the dying organisms releasing toxins which only exasperate things. He could also have had a few infections by the time you brought him inside.

Yeah, I can tell the time zone difference in our replies. It's almost as much as doing correspondence in the UK which I have done for many years. Hard to get on the same time, haha. And today is going to be my busy day! I can relate.

I didn't know there was a huge problem with birds there. I am suspecting they aren't immune to foreign germs that get imported to the island(s). Also, lack of minerals could weaken their defense system. Rats, I can see that happening, but usually figure feral cats would be the main predator, but they may not be on some islands yet. Best to get that little baby on preventative antibiotics seeing he has puncture wounds and saliva contamination. I'm sure the rats can carry typhus and who knows what else. 90% of cats carry pasturella bacteria which can be quite fatal to birds for instance. You definitely have a niche there They must know and are led there by your other birds, or there's a major local problem with avian diseases, or both. Haha, I bet they think it is mystical, medicine man

Okay, I have put my folder online. I will be adding some more general vet books later when I take my classes since they offer nice ones for every class. A huge bonus I'd say for new good books! One brand new one on fluid therapy that I have in the folder already was like 1,300+ pages. I'd hate to imagine how much it would cost in print form. College books, especially medical tomes are $$$.

Alright, I hope Zeke continues his improvement and healing. Poor guy, he needs the lap of luxury after all he's been through. I feel the same way about my animals, I don't want to risk anything for them. I will be on later today or this evening. I hope you have a good day!

 

[John B]

Hi Jonathan, tried to respond earlier, but busy day I think we are 4 or 5 hours behind you.

So I checked the links you provided and there is some horror stories.

Before I next administer the two week follow up of Panacur, I'll talk with the vet. Might need to back it down to 1 dose a day instead of two. Maybe for one day instead of three.Maybe lower dose. Don't know. After all, if Zeke had worms/nematodes the follow up would be for the eggs that might hatch within him, I'm guessing when I say that.

The vet said that he didn't see eggs in the fecal smear. I think the reason he chose Panacur is that he was aware that I had already given Zeke worm out (prazequantel) and followed up with evermictin. When prazequantel did not work (still passing white pea sized jelly like poopie and I did see a cresent shape worm, or rather larvae in his watery poop. I still have not id'd that dam worm/larvae ) I tried the ivermectin convinced Zeke had nematodes and not tape worm. So, after the Ivermectin, he still passed Jelly like poopies. After two week follow up of evermectin, still jelly poopies. The vets argument was that if the nematodes were high enough up in the digestive system both the lose worms and the eggs would get digested and thus would not show up in a smear. As we now know, no more jelly like poopies after Panacur. Also noteworthy: before worming him I noticed black poopies. I stopped all foods that might result in dark droppings (sunflower) and still black dropings. I suspected blood. This was before his watery poopies began. His poopies are a mess now, but not black anymore.

I'm still very concerned about a follow up dose of Panacur though. So,'ll I voice my concerns to the vet and see where it takes me.

Do you have a suggestion for an alternative?

Zeke is doing a little better today. Hopefully each day will be better.

Looking back at the three days of giving Zeke the panacur, he did go down hill faster. However, even before the panacur he had very watery poopies.

I had a little baby zebra dove come to us today. He was hanging out around the aviary and I simply reached down and picked him up. He has paratyphoid and puncture marks on his belly and wings. Probably from a rat (rather large species of Polynesian rats). Any how I cleaned his wounds and crop fed him avian formula and waited for a poopie sample. Couple hours later, there it was, definitely paratyphoid. We get a couple of paratyphoid and two or three trich birds each month, thats just the ones that come to us not including the ones that neighbors and friends bring. People think that Its mystical that the sick and injured birds seek us out for help. I see it a little more rationally and think that a sick or injured bird will be attracted to all the bird activity around our house. Like yourself, I except the fact that these little souls bdecome intertwined in our lifeline.

Thanks for the shake up on the Panacur, won't risk anything on my Zeke
Later

 

[jonrf]

John, I hope Zeke is getting stronger by the day still. I jumped online for a few minutes to see if you got my private message. I saw your new post, but for some reason it is identical to your last one. I'll check back a little later.

 

[John B]

zeke

I have no clue what happened with the identical posting.

You are right about the cats, they are a BIG problem here. Its really quite sad because the cats (and mongoose) have devastated native bird species. Especially ground nesting birds. We have a chronic feral cat problem here and its impossible for the state or counties to address the problem as the animal rights groups shut down any efforts. I started trapping cats in 2017 and now I always have a cat trap and a mongoose trap set up at all times. I never destroy them though, the mongoose I relocate and the cats go to a sanctuary if they are visibly healthy other wise they go to the humane society. I lost a pigeon to a cat in 2017, and that started me setting up traps. I will look for and share the picture of this little soul who was a cat casualty. I bet it brings a smile to your face.

The presence of pasturella in cats here on the island is almost certain. I don't know if all cats are carriers, but all the other rehabbers as well as myself assume that if its a cat mauling, pasturella is a concern. Death seems to be 24-48 hours after contact. With the little dove, some of the wounds had scabbed over and it would have taken longer than 24-48 hours so I'm only guessing its a rat. Could possibly be a mongoose, but the mongoose will typically take a quarter size bite out of the neck/back area.

Got my drop box set up and I am like a kid in a candy store, I'm just a little tech challenged and I'm working with my wife to properly download these files. I could not View them. I went straight to "fungus infections".
Later