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Spartrix can be substituted for Metronidazole. Those are mostly used against diseases like canker and don't have near as much true antibacterial effect. Baytril (Enrofloxacin, Enrofloxan, Enroxil, and many other names but all the same medicine) is the veterinary version of our Ciprofloxacin, which gets a lot of different bacteria including the ones responsible for Paratyphoid which this might be. The Tetracyclines (Tetracycline, Oxytetracycline, Doxycycline and a few others which are slightly different medicines; they go under several different trade names like Aureomycin, Terramycin, etc.) actually target some different bacterial families than Baytril although there is some overlap. Without some tests that you may or may not be able to get done at a vet, there's not a lot of way to know which way to jump here. At least you can easily get one or another of the Tetracyclines at a feed store.

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Be sure and post exactly what you got and all of the information on the package as soon as you get back if you manage to get some. Somebody here will try to hammer out a dosing strategy as soon as you have something in hand.

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Chat with Flying_pidgy:

gabber200: I'm actually both of the other folks on here.

Flying_pidgy: hi

ah ok

gabber200 is now Pidgey

Pidgey: Two different machines at work.

Flying_pidgy: oooh

sorry about the phone thing :(

Pidgey: Have you figured out how to take his respiration rate?

Flying_pidgy: hmm is it just see how many times it takes a breath in a minute?

Pidgey: That's right. Have you done it?

Flying_pidgy: il do it right now i just got home

brb

Sent at 07:48 pm on Wednesday.

Pidgey: Did you get any Tetracycline?

Flying_pidgy: not yet im waiting until my mom comes home so i can find the phone number of the shop

brb i have to find a stop watch or something

Pidgey: k

Sent at 07:50 pm on Wednesday.

Pidgey: You know, any kind of watch with a second-hand or even something digital will work...

Sent at 07:56 pm on Wednesday.

Flying_pidgy: k

its i think 43

43 tiems i saw his chest move in a minute

Pidgey: Well, then that's 43. It looked faster on the video.

Flying_pidgy: is that good?

Pidgey: You see, it's possible that he's had an infection that's caused a temporary anemia...

...and his body has caught up and remade enough blood cells to do the job.

But that ain't the only possibility.

His respiration rate should be closer to 30.

Flying_pidgy: hmm

Pidgey: You can probably time one of the other ones about his age for comparison.l

Flying_pidgy: how much did you count?

Pidgey: More like 60.

Flying_pidgy: my dad said it looks alot better than it did this morning before he gave it spartrix

Pidgey: Assuming the video is at the true speed, of course.

Might be.

Could be canker although that's not the most normal presentation.

Flying_pidgy: Hes my only squab i have, and the last one i was breeding

Pidgey: What all else have you done for him like trying to rehydrate him and stuff like that?

Flying_pidgy: i put seeds infront of him before i left home i dont think he ate any but this morning his crop was full

Pidgey: Well, where there's eating, there's hope.

Flying_pidgy: and i put water in a spoon and put it up to its beak but it shook its head like it didnt want it

Pidgey: You never know if the bird's got an infection that he's actually managing to get over on his own.

So he hasn't had any water that you know of today?

Flying_pidgy: its leg is also hurting i think because he fell about 3 inches

when he tries to walk he flaps his wings to aid him

Pidgey: That's not enough to hurt their legs--they're far tougher than we are.

Flying_pidgy: other than the water my dad gave it in the morning it hasnt

Pidgey: How did and how much did you Dad give him?

Flying_pidgy: im going to go re check the mothers mouth to see if she has canker or something

he gave one tablet

Pidgey: The water.

Flying_pidgy: he put the tablet in his mouth but it didnt take it so he dissolved it

let me ask brb

Sent at 08:06 pm on Wednesday.

Flying_pidgy: he said one spoon and a half

Pidgey: What kind of spoon?

Sent at 08:10 pm on Wednesday.

Flying_pidgy: eating spoon

Pidgey: That's not much water, then, especially in that heat.

Flying_pidgy: and also in the morning when it was breathing i could hear it breathing, but now i cant hear it

should he give it some water?

Pidgey: To give you an idea what your conditions are like, pigeons will usually drink about 8% of their weight in water per day. Can you weigh the bird?

Flying_pidgy: i dont have a scale

Pidgey: Try to describe how much the bird weighs by comparison.

For instance, is this a homer?

Flying_pidgy: its a ihf

iranian high flyer

Pidgey: Like a Tippler?

Flying_pidgy: tumbler

Pidgey: So, the breed is more like the size of a feral pigeon than a big honkin' homer?

Sent at 08:14 pm on Wednesday.

Flying_pidgy: yea

Pidgey: And how old is this squab?

Flying_pidgy: are they going to be more than 1 lb?

i have a scale that goes to 1b, its about 4-5 weeks old

Pidgey: How does he feel compared to a regular adult of his type? Usually, they're less than a pound.

Flying_pidgy: il try to weigh him

brb

Pidgey: Sure.

Sent at 08:17 pm on Wednesday.

Flying_pidgy: its aroudn 4 ounces

around*

4-5 ounces

Pidgey: One ounce is almost 30 grams (29.57) so that's 120 to 150 grams.

Flying_pidgy: yeah that wounds right from the scale

Pidgey: Just out of curiosity, do you have a measuring cup and something like a styrofoam cup or a paper cup?

Flying_pidgy: waht do u mean?

first is the 4 oucnes bad?

Pidgey: A measuring cup shows quantities on the side like ounces and such.

Well, hold your horses, we'll get to that.

Flying_pidgy: my mom has a cooking one

Pidgey: What we want to try and do is verify that your scale works.

Flying_pidgy: and ya we have styrophome thing

ahh i see

wow ur smart lol

i would have never thought of that

Pidgey: If you've got a paper or styrofoam cup that you can weigh first and then measure in four or five ounces, we can test your scale.

Four of five ounces of water, that is.

Flying_pidgy: k let me see brb

Sent at 08:23 pm on Wednesday.

Flying_pidgy: ok back

the scale is off i think

Pidgey: What number did you get?

Flying_pidgy: i put 4 ounc in the mesuring cup and i put it in the paper cup and it showed almost 2ounces

and it says paper cup is weighing at nothing

Pidgey: Get precise.

Flying_pidgy: so the scale is half of what it is

Pidgey: The paper cup won't weigh much.

About that and that's what I expected.

Put enough water in the cup to make the same weight that the bird weighed.

Then measure it.

Flying_pidgy: u mean put water in the cup to see how much it was on the scale?

so i put 4 ounces of water on the scale? and them pour it in the mesuring cup?

Pidgey: Put the paper cup on the scale...

Flying_pidgy: k

Pidgey: ...and then keep pouring water in until the indicator reads what it did when you weighed the squab.

Flying_pidgy: kk

brb

Pidgey: Then pour that water into your mom's measuring cup.

...and see as exactly as you can how much it is.

Sent at 08:32 pm on Wednesday.

Flying_pidgy: its 7 ounces

Pidgey: Between 3/4's and one full cup?

Flying_pidgy: its right in the middle of 6 and 8

i used the small dixie cups

Pidgey: Okay, then the bird actually weighs about 210 grams.

Flying_pidgy: it was two full cups next to each other

Pidgey: That works.

So, he's a little thin but it's not absolutely horrible news.

How prominent is the breastbone (keel)?

Flying_pidgy: ty for taking time out of your day to help me, i really apprechiate it

hmm

like how much it sticks out?

Pidgey: You're welcome. All a part of our friendly service with a smile at Pigeon-Talk.

Flying_pidgy: :)

Pidgey: Yeah, how much it sticks out.

Flying_pidgy: brb

Sent at 08:36 pm on Wednesday.

Flying_pidgy: not very much i feel more food than bone

Pidgey: Down closer to between the legs. You're feeling too high.

Flying_pidgy: oh ok brb

Sent at 08:38 pm on Wednesday.

Flying_pidgy: it sticks out

Pidgey: Kinda' figured it did. Can you pinch it and literally hold the bird by it?

Flying_pidgy: hes warm though

not very much

Pidgey: Well, we've got some reserve, anyhow.

Different question, how truly yellow do those urates really look?

Flying_pidgy: hmm

Pidgey: You see, that often means that the liver is involved and that can be any of many bacterial infections as well as canker.

Flying_pidgy: its like creamy yellow

Pidgey: Since you really don't have any other medications, you're going to hope it's canker but that's a scary proposition if it's not.

Flying_pidgy: yeah thats what my dad said too

two of my birds had canker before

this would be the first withought it

withoguht it being that

Pidgey: Usually, cankers have a particular normal presentation that depends on the species.

Sent at 08:44 pm on Wednesday.

Pidgey: That is, if they're the kind that cause yellow buttons inside the mouth then you usually see that. If they're the sneakier kind which tend to cause problems inside without causing the yellow cheesy buttons in the mouth, then you almost never see 'em

Sent at 08:46 pm on Wednesday.

Pidgey: I'm going to sign off--still at work and gotta' go home.

I'll post this conversation if it's alright with you.
 

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Well, 8% of 210 grams would be 16.8 milliliters of water which is about one tablespoon or three teaspoons of water. You can check with your Mom for a set of measuring spoons to see how much we're talking about.

Pidgey
 

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Well, yeah, I would. You could go into a little detail explaining how he is this morning... you know, respiration rate, perkiness, attitude...

Has this baby ever eaten on his own or is he still being fed by his parents? That is, would he know what solid food was if you put it in front of him? You might have already mentioned something about that but I'd have to go back through the whole thread looking...

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Yeah, you did say it could eat and drink for itself. Sometimes, though, they go "anorectic" and quit eating because they don't feel like it and that's often the worst thing they can do. At such times, we usually have to carry them through it by either tube-feeding them or forcing them to eat some peas, corn, puppy chow or stuff like that. Not a lot, mind you, but a teaspoonful should suffice for awhile.

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Discussion Starter #53
Well, yeah, I would. You could go into a little detail explaining how he is this morning... you know, respiration rate, perkiness, attitude...

Has this baby ever eaten on his own or is he still being fed by his parents? That is, would he know what solid food was if you put it in front of him? You might have already mentioned something about that but I'd have to go back through the whole thread looking...

Pidgey

today his respiration was around 41, i saw a poop that was not yelloy anymore but it looked normal colored compared to my other birds, he looks slightyly better not not so much. when i offered him water or shaked the water he shook its head meaning he didnt want any. He has been eating and drinking on his own.

i have to go to work right now but il be back and il read what you guys say at work but i cant bring the little fella because theres alot of car exhaust and stuff and thats not good for him.
 

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Clint, you need to feed him. He is separated from his parents who were feeding him and he probably doesn't know how to eat on his own yet.
You are going to need to be his dad until he gets better.
 

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Clint, If you need meds and can't find them in your community, maybe feralpigeon could send you some. It's worth a try to send feralpigeon a private message and ask.
 
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