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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
I'm sure the cream will be ok, as long as he don't ingest it. Also make sure the apple cider vinegar is the natural unfiltered brand with the "mother".
Okay - I’m not sure they have this one here in Portugal but I will try to find an unfiltered one. He still doesn’t drink or eat, how much would you add in the syringe? Right now I feed him twice a day, each 15 ml… like one drop or 2 per feeding?
 

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Surely health shops will stock the apple cider vinegar. Here by us one can buy in a supermarket. You can use the acv water as a base for his formula. Use for one full day twice a week. So add 5 ml acv to a litre of water and then use that water to mix his formula to a consistency of tomato ketchup. I doubt he will need additional water then. Try to feed him more formula. Give 20 ml 3 times a day.
 

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Okay - I’m not sure they have this one here in Portugal but I will try to find an unfiltered one. He still doesn’t drink or eat, how much would you add in the syringe? Right now I feed him twice a day, each 15 ml… like one drop or 2 per feeding?
Here unfiltered acv is usually available in places which sell organic products.

Are there supermarkets like Carrefour, Auchan or Géant Casino ? If yes, give a look at their organic section, if it's like here you should find unfiltered acv (the one which looks cloudy) there. In the common oil/vinegar section they have only the filtered ones (which look very transparent).
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
Okay
Surely health shops will stock the apple cider vinegar. Here by us one can buy in a supermarket. You can use the acv water as a base for his formula. Use for one full day twice a week. So add 5 ml acv to a litre of water and then use that water to mix his formula to a consistency of tomato ketchup. I doubt he will need additional water then. Try to feed him more formula. Give 20 ml 3 times a day.
i found it! Before I found him with difficulty breathing, I checked and there was a lot of transparent mucus, gel like, that blocked his throat and beak. I removed it and he seemed better after. What could that mean? Does is come from the infection in the beak? This morning I was so happy because it seemed like the swelling didn’t spread, at least to what I saw. And the edges and thinner swellings turned orange/ yellow instead of being red. Is that the healing process starting? Thanks!
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
Here unfiltered acv is usually available in places which sell organic products.

Are there supermarkets like Carrefour, Auchan or Géant Casino ? If yes, give a look at their organic section, if it's like here you should find unfiltered acv (the one which looks cloudy) there. In the common oil/vinegar section they have only the filtered ones (which look very transparent).
Yes I found it, thank you! It says unfiltered and 5% so it should be the right one :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
Excess mucous in the throat can be a sign of canker. His droppjngs don't look good either. I'm posting a list of canker symptoms to look out for. View attachment 102764
It is difficult to tell because of his swelling. He doesn't eat because of it. His beak is swollen and he has a lot of mucus. His beak is in pretty bad condition, but tbh besides that I'm surprised how "alert" and okay he is. The diarrhoea worries me and I'm wondering if it has to do with liver / kidneys. Compared to the dove with canker he is not like she was. He always has his eyes open, stands up etc.

However, I am worried about canker, if I would give him carnidazole, would that be damaging if he doesn't have canker? Since he's already getting baytril and meloxicam...
 

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I'm not sure about that combination of meds. In the past I have used metronidazole and amoxycillin simultaneously with no side effects. Hopefully Colombina can advise. I know that Baytril is quite harsh on their systems. How long has he been on Baytril? Start with the apple cider vinegar asap and see if that makes a difference in the droppings.
 

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Discussion Starter · #30 ·
He’s been on it for almost 2 weeks. The diarrhoea started all of a sudden 2 days ago. I already started ACV today at lunch time and will give him his third meal tonight.
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
I’m just wondering because he has been with me since the 23rd of July recovering from pox. He never showed any signs of canker. I tried to keep the dove and him separate always, I always used differnt syringes and disinfected hands etc, so how could he have canker? Or could he have had it the whole time?
 

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I think you should stop the baytril. Two weeks is a long time. Surely this was only prescribed by the vet to prevent secondary infections while recovering from pox.

All pigeons carry the organism that causes canker. Healthy pigeons with a good immunity don't get affected by this. When the immunity drops and when under stress, the organisms starts multiplying and that's when a pigeon gets sick from canker. Your pigeon ticks both boxes.

It's also possible he might have a yeast infection. Have you tried checking deep inside the throat with a flashlight? Yeast looks different than canker, more whitish in appearance. Giving antibiotics can make yeast worse.

Stop all meds and rather give the acv based formula for a couple of days. Can you get Nystatin for yeast? Nystatin is safe to give as this does not get absorbed into the body. Sometimes Nystatin gets prescribed with antibiotics to prevent yeast infections.
 

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Discussion Starter · #33 ·
I think you should stop the baytril. Two weeks is a long time. Surely this was only prescribed by the vet to prevent secondary infections while recovering from pox.

All pigeons carry the organism that causes canker. Healthy pigeons with a good immunity don't get affected by this. When the immunity drops and when under stress, the organisms starts multiplying and that's when a pigeon gets sick from canker. Your pigeon ticks both boxes.

It's also possible he might have a yeast infection. Have you tried checking deep inside the throat with a flashlight? Yeast looks different than canker, more whitish in appearance. Giving antibiotics can make yeast worse.

Stop all meds and rather give the acv based formula for a couple of days. Can you get Nystatin for yeast? Nystatin is safe to give as this does not get absorbed into the body. Sometimes Nystatin gets prescribed with antibiotics to prevent yeast infections.
The vet said to give baytril until he is fully recovered. It seems like it didn’t do anything though, the swelling only got worse and worse so maybe stopping it makes sense. What about meloxicam? I can stop it all and see how he does in a couple of days. I will look into his throat now.
 

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It is difficult to tell because of his swelling. He doesn't eat because of it. His beak is swollen and he has a lot of mucus. His beak is in pretty bad condition, but tbh besides that I'm surprised how "alert" and okay he is. The diarrhoea worries me and I'm wondering if it has to do with liver / kidneys. Compared to the dove with canker he is not like she was. He always has his eyes open, stands up etc.

However, I am worried about canker, if I would give him carnidazole, would that be damaging if he doesn't have canker? Since he's already getting baytril and meloxicam...
I'm not sure about that combination of meds. In the past I have used metronidazole and amoxycillin simultaneously with no side effects. Hopefully Colombina can advise. I know that Baytril is quite harsh on their systems. How long has he been on Baytril? Start with the apple cider vinegar asap and see if that makes a difference in the droppings.
In the past I have used spartrix and doxycycline simultaneously with no side effects but never used spartrix and baytril simultaneously.

The spartrix directions for use (check the pic that I posted in your other thread) say "interactions with other meds and other things: unknown". But maybe simply they never did any study about that...

I checked the directions for use of metacam (meloxicam) and baytril.
I attach pics but they are in French language, if you have them too check them in your language.
Carnidazole is in the nitroimidazole class (I checked online) and they don't mention any interaction with it.
All that said honestly I don't have a definite answer, I'm sorry.

Canker could be originated even by stress, I mean the canker protozoan could multiply in case of stressful situations as Marina explained. I can't tell you if this is the case.

I would look for probiotics. Do you know if French products are available there? If yes, you could look for Vitaregul Francodex or Oceproven Virbac. They have the same composition but the first one is more convenient because it is for bigger amount of water.

I'm going to re-read your whole thread.
 

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Discussion Starter · #35 ·
In the past I have used spartrix and doxycycline simultaneously with no side effects but never used spartrix and baytril simultaneously.

The spartrix directions for use (check the pic that I posted in your other thread) say "interactions with other meds and other things: unknown". But maybe simply they never did any study about that...

I checked the directions for use of metacam (meloxicam) and baytril.
I attach pics but they are in French language, if you have them too check them in your language.
Carnidazole is in the nitroimidazole class (I checked online) and they don't mention any interaction with it.
All that said honestly I don't have a definite answer, I'm sorry.

Canker could be originated even by stress, I mean the canker protozoan could multiply in case of stressful situations as Marina explained. I can't tell you if this is the case.

I would look for probiotics. Do you know if French products are available there? If yes, you could look for Vitaregul Francodex or Oceproven Virbac. They have the same composition but the first one is more convenient because it is for bigger amount of water.

I'm going to re-read your whole thread.
Okay, I guess all of this is very stressful for him and his immune system is weakened anyways.

I just fed him and he didn't have much mucus anymore. It was only once that it was very bad, the rest of the day only a little bit.

Here is a video of his beak: Loom | Free Screen & Video Recording Software

I know it's not very well visible, sorry. I didn't see any white dots, I only found a bit of the mucus which had some white parts in it, it could be the food or pus. The white part on the left of his beak is pus from the infection.

He doesn't seem lethargic or anything.

I can try to find the French products in the pharmacy, are they available without a prescription? I will be back home on Tuesday where I could also go to the vet, but at this point I'm a bit worried they won't be helpful in this case. Also the vet that has treated the pigeon won't be here this week. But I'm sure they can give me probiotics.

About stoping the baytril, because he still has this huge infection, won't it get worse when I stop it?

Thank you all for your help!
 

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I've never used Baytril, but from what I've read it's very harsh on their bodies. I always use an amoxycillin based meds as this is available in our pharmacies without prescription. The meloxicam is also a drug harsh on their system. I once tried to get from a vet, but he refused to give to me.

If this was a pigeon in my care, I would stop all meds now. Try to boost him with the apple cider vinegar and try to get the probiotics.

I will view the video a bit later, away from home right now.
 

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No, it's not needed a prescription, they are probiotics (both of them have the same composition). Here they are available in places like garden centers (the ones which sell animal products like Jardiland) or they are directly sold by vets.



A bacterial infection could get worse in case you stop antibiotics when infection is still going on. If there is pus there is still infection.
I have never dealt with a situation similar to yours one. Only my brother dealt with pox but there was no a similar infection.

I really don't know if that could be a good idea or not but last July/August I got an infection at my finger. I had yellow pus under the skin, it was hard and painful too. As the infected area started to increase in size I went to pharmacy. They gave me the product in the pic. It's a transcutaneous antiseptic solution. It can be used in two ways: local bath (the pharmacist suggested this method in my case) and wet dressings.
I found a link in English language with a description of the product:



The pharmacist told me that I would have needed an oral antibiotic in case the product didn't work. The solution worked great and if I remember correctly on day 2 the pus started to little by little go out from skin.
I was wondering if you could try that (wet dressing) on him (of course, not inside the beak).
You could ask for an opinion to your vet.

Baytril is a broad spectrum antibiotic but apparently you didn't see any improvement in two weeks (except for the beginning). I was wondering if you should change antibiotic.
Here you can read info about antibiotic:


About amoxicillin (the one mentioned by Marina) they say:

"An excellent broad spectrum antibiotic. Often good against Salmonella, E. coli, Strep. & Staph. species of bacteria".

Recently my mum got an infection in her mouth and the dentist gave her amoxicillin plus clavulanic acid.
Maybe you could talk to your vet about changing antibiotic?
I don't like giving antibiotics when they are not needed but in case of bacterial infection I fear that without antibiotics the problem could get worse. Honestly it's a big dilemma..

Also I want to say that years ago my vet suggested me to apply topically inside the beak a mouthwash called Eludril. The dentist prescribed that to my mum too
I was wondering if that could help your bird.

Two of our members dealt with terrible cases of pox, honestly I don't remember if there was any point in common with your case but if you have time you could give a look at the threads:




Meloxicam is a pain med, here vets usually prescribe it for birds too.
I have never seen side effects but I know that in a long term it could have side effects.


When my beloved cat Kira needed a pain med but was a senior cat the vet decided to give me arnica instead of metacam.
 

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Discussion Starter · #38 ·
No, it's not needed a prescription, they are probiotics (both of them have the same composition). Here they are available in places like garden centers (the ones which sell animal products like Jardiland) or they are directly sold by vets.



A bacterial infection could get worse in case you stop antibiotics when infection is still going on. If there is pus there is still infection.
I have never dealt with a situation similar to yours one. Only my brother dealt with pox but there was no a similar infection.

I really don't know if that could be a good idea or not but last July/August I got an infection at my finger. I had yellow pus under the skin, it was hard and painful too. As the infected area started to increase in size I went to pharmacy. They gave me the product in the pic. It's a transcutaneous antiseptic solution. It can be used in two ways: local bath (the pharmacist suggested this method in my case) and wet dressings.
I found a link in English language with a description of the product:



The pharmacist told me that I would have needed an oral antibiotic in case the product didn't work. The solution worked great and if I remember correctly on day 2 the pus started to little by little go out from skin.
I was wondering if you could try that (wet dressing) on him (of course, not inside the beak).
You could ask for an opinion to your vet.

Baytril is a broad spectrum antibiotic but apparently you didn't see any improvement in two weeks (except for the beginning). I was wondering if you should change antibiotic.
Here you can read info about antibiotic:


About amoxicillin (the one mentioned by Marina) they say:

"An excellent broad spectrum antibiotic. Often good against Salmonella, E. coli, Strep. & Staph. species of bacteria".

Recently my mum got an infection in her mouth and the dentist gave her amoxicillin plus clavulanic acid.
Maybe you could talk to your vet about changing antibiotic?
I don't like giving antibiotics when they are not needed but in case of bacterial infection I fear that without antibiotics the problem could get worse. Honestly it's a big dilemma..

Also I want to say that years ago my vet suggested me to apply topically inside the beak a mouthwash called Eludril. The dentist prescribed that to my mum too
I was wondering if that could help your bird.

Two of our members dealt with terrible cases of pox, honestly I don't remember if there was any point in common with your case but if you have time you could give a look at the threads:




Meloxicam is a pain med, here vets usually prescribe it for birds too.
I have never seen side effects but I know that in a long term it could have side effects.


When my beloved cat Kira needed a pain med but was a senior cat the vet decided to give me arnica instead of metacam.
Oh thank you SO much for this detailed reply! I will read through everything.

I don't want to get excited too early, but I have the feeling it has improved. Since yesterday I didn't find thick mucus anymore and the swelling inside went down a bit, I noticed because it was way easier to syringe feed him. The swollen area starts to turn orange, I still don't know if that means healing but it doesn't seem to get worse and inside the beak it seemed to have dried up a bit.

I was extremely worried about the diarrhoea, it got so bad all of a sudden but it seemed to have improved, it's still not perfect droppings but I wouldn't even call it diarrhoea anymore. The ACV must have helped a lot.

This morning I didn't give baytril anymore, I'm a bit concerned now, but It really didn't help with the swelling and I'm still applying the antibiotic ointment which seemed to have helped a lot so far. since applying it it stopped growing more and made it turn orange and I just hope it's drying up.

However if things get worse again I will try the antiseptic dressing.

Tomorrow I'm driving home, it's almost a 3 hour drive and I hope it won't stress him too much. In the afternoon I will go to the vet anyways so I will talk about changing antibiotics, unless things look really good tomorrow, then maybe it's okay to leave it.

I'm honestly just happy things seem to improve even a tiny bit, thanks to all your& Marina's help. I really thought he wouldn't make it because the swelling got worse and worse, he couldn't eat or drink anymore, then the diarrhoea. I felt so sad for him because he's so young and has been through so much already, he hasn't even learned how to coo properly.

Today I noticed that where the pox was previously little things popped up again, they look like clogged pores humans skin. I guess that's how pox starts? I removed them,I used a q tip and saline to rub on it and they fell out. But is that the pox coming back? or might it be old from the previous pox warts?

Thank you so much, I will keep you updated!
 

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Ask the vet for an amoxycillin based meds. Either Betamox, synulox or clavmet. Dosage for an adult pigeon will be 40 mg twice a day. You don't have to give, for now just keep it in case things deteriorate again and the swelling starts up again. At least amoxycillin is not so harsh on the liver and you might need it again for future rescues. Comes in handy esp for birds caught by cats.

Glad to hear the droppings improved. Keep us updated plse.
 

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Oh these are good news!!! I'm very very happy to hear that!
Hopefully his body has started to win the battle against the infection!!!

Let us know what the vet will say tomorrow.
In all cases, having amoxicillin on hand would be a good idea.

Keep us updated!
 
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