[learning]

O.K. boys and girls, what do I put down on the race reports for a color on this one?! Whatever she is, she sure is pretty to me. Too bad pretty doesn't always win races!

View attachment 12405

This bird is a product of two highly inbred birds that are half brother and sister. Here is the cock:

View attachment 12406

As you can tell he is what I call a red velvet.

Here is the hen:

View attachment 12407

She would be a dark check or blue velvet as some folks call them.

So...what do you guys think? I have tentatively called the baby a mosaic although I am sure this is not technically correct. Is this one result from highly inbreeding birds? Maybe this post needs to be on the genetics page.

Anyway, just curious as to everyone's thoughts.

Dan

 

[dvtlegend]

looks like chocolates or brick reds, I have a few of them myself which comes out with plum looking colors.

 

[learning]

looks like chocolates or brick reds, I have a few of them myself which comes out with plum looking colors.

I'm sorry, I guess my question was vague. I am wondering about the color name for the first bird, not the parents in the second and third photos. Thanks though!

Dan

 

[MaryOfExeter]

Congrats, you have a mosaic
Part T-pattern red, and part T-pattern blue.


If it were a chocolate (genetically Indigo, but racers call them chocolates), then the tail bar would be missing. And bronze does not look like that. So you have a mosaic This is the second one I've seen this year, both racers. The other was bred by a guy in our club. His name here is Barn Pigeon and he needs to hurry up with the pictures!

 

[learning]

Congrats, you have a mosaic
Part T-pattern red, and part T-pattern blue.


If it were a chocolate (genetically Indigo, but racers call them chocolates), then the tail bar would be missing. And bronze does not look like that. So you have a mosaic This is the second one I've seen this year, both racers. The other was bred by a guy in our club. His name here is Barn Pigeon and he needs to hurry up with the pictures!

So what are the genetic inputs of the two parents here and how does that combine to what we see here? Just as an FYI, this bird's nestmate is a normal old red check.

Thanks for the insights by the way. That is a lot of knowledge for such a young age! You are to be commended.

Thanks Again,

Dan

 

[MaryOfExeter]

The more I look at it, the more I question myself. I'm almost positive it ISN'T bronze on a t-pattern (velvet), and that it IS a mosaic. We'll see what others have to say.



It appears that both parents are T-patterns. If the sibling is a regular check, then the parents are also het. for check. T-pattern is dominate to check, so they'd both have to have the check gene in them for it to show.
So like I said, it looks like the bird is a T-pattern in general, it's just somehow the red and blue got fused together. Makes a pretty bird

 

[learning]

The more I look at it, the more I question myself. I'm almost positive it ISN'T bronze on a t-pattern (velvet), and that it IS a mosaic. We'll see what others have to say.



It appears that both parents are T-patterns. If the sibling is a regular check, then the parents are also het. for check. T-pattern is dominate to check, so they'd both have to have the check gene in them for it to show.
So like I said, it looks like the bird is a T-pattern in general, it's just somehow the red and blue got fused together. Makes a pretty bird

O.K. now I will really show my ignorance. What exactly is a T-Pattern?

Dan

 

[MaryOfExeter]

O.K. now I will really show my ignorance. What exactly is a T-Pattern?

Dan

T-pattern is the technical term for "velvet" or "dark check". All three are the same thing, and all three are what your birds are

They got the name from the way the wing shield feathers are all dark except a little light colored 'T' on the tips. The way velvets look can vary in how dark the wings are, but typically you'll see those T's unless you have a bird with two genes for it. That's when you get those solid colored wings.

 

[TAWhatley]

If you post a link to this thread in the Genetics forum I'm sure you'll get lots more input. That is a gorgeous bird!

Terry

 

[MaryOfExeter]

Is it possible someone could just move this thread to the Genetics forum? Having two of the same threads normally causes a little confusion.

 

[learning]

Is it possible someone could just move this thread to the Genetics forum? Having two of the same threads normally causes a little confusion.

I originally thought about putting it in the genetics thread but it ended up here. Yes, if one of the moderators could move it for me that would be great.

Thanks,

Dan

 

[TAWhatley]

It's moved!

Terry

 

[SmithFamilyLoft]

Gee...that hen looks very familiar...... As you can see from the picture below, that dark "velvet" color shows up in the Ludo lines. As does the red "velvet".

IMHO, you have produced a bird very similar to one I produced a few years back, except that it was a "Saddle".....the foremost authority on pigeon colors that I know is Ron Huntley. http://www.angelfire.com/ga/huntleyloft/Page1.html#

If you are nice, and share a picture, he does reply.

The good news, you have produced a beautiful bird, and it shows that there is some color variety in the line. But, it also suggests to me, that this pairing is more likely to produce show winners, and not race winners. Perhaps this is an exception, but in the bird I bred above, he was a little on the dumb side, he was lost on his first 5 mile training toss. I'm thinking you have reached the end of the road in terms of inbreeding. I don't know who the cock is, but I suspect it is time to do a complete out cross with this hen. Now, of course if you end up winning some races with this bird, you managed to have the best of both worlds, a gorgeous bird, a race winner who could also win in the shows, and most likely would make a great breeder to do a complete out cross.

I toyed with the idea of producing a whole new line of these dark velvets, but the closer I got in terms of inbreeding, the fewer performance birds I produced, which in theory increased their breeding value, when used as a cross. But, there are only so many nest boxes. One thing for sure, the birds you are producing sure are eye catchers !!

 

[risingstarfans]

Mosaic

It is definately a mosaic, and will be a cock.

Inbreeding had little or nothing to do with it.

 

[george simon]

Hi Dan, I would like to see the tail and the primary flights of the red parent that I understand is a cock .This bird could be a homozyous Indigo.If he is it could explain the deep red color of the wing shield.GEORGE

 

[learning]

It is definately a mosaic, and will be a cock.

Inbreeding had little or nothing to do with it.

O.K. help me out here. Why does it have to be a cock? Genetics never was my forte!

Dan

 

[SmithFamilyLoft]

It is definately a mosaic, and will be a cock.

Inbreeding had little or nothing to do with it.

Well....when reading the "explanations" from the experts....my eyes sort of glaze over, see: http://www.angelfire.com/ga/huntleyloft/mosaics.html

Of course, to me saying "little or nothing", might be like saying "something or nothing".....and then with "something" like genetics...."something" could have everything to do with it. If the genes for this were in a particular bird in the background, and that bird shows up several times in the pedigree, it could increase the odds of those traits in the subject bird. I mean the whole point of inbreeding is to increase the odds that the traits we want, will be reproduced into the offspring. But, you may be correct, the breeding of a closely related pair, may not have anything at all to do with this mutation.

I guess as a breeder, what I hope for, is some sort of new mutation, which creates a "Super Racer" and then hope that mutation can be bred into the colony.

 

[learning]

Well....when reading the "explanations" from the experts....my eyes sort of glaze over, see: http://www.angelfire.com/ga/huntleyloft/mosaics.html

Of course, to me saying "little or nothing", might be like saying "something or nothing".....and then with "something" like genetics...."something" could have everything to do with it. If the genes for this were in a particular bird in the background, and that bird shows up several times in the pedigree, it could increase the odds of those traits in the subject bird. I mean the whole point of inbreeding is to increase the odds that the traits we want, will be reproduced into the offspring. But, you may be correct, the breeding of a closely related pair, may not have anything at all to do with this mutation.

I guess as a breeder, what I hope for, is some sort of new mutation, which creates a "Super Racer" and then hope that mutation can be bred into the colony.

Yeah, that's just what I need...a loft full of "MUTANTS"!!

 

[george simon]

Hi DAN, Well I will go against the grain on this one, this bird is not a MOSAIC it is nothing more then a Chocolate splash (INDGO SPLASH for the show people) Geneticly Indigo covers the true color blue and at times does a poor job of it. Now the question is where did the indigo come from on this bird? I believe it comes from the red cock you see mating two indigos will give you from time to time a red mimic, this red mimic (homozyous indigo) will fool most people, into thinking its a red check, and I am sure that is what those that race would call it, after all those that race are intrested in speed and homing not color. I raise Indigo's and have three red check mimics in my loft at this time, and the birds were raised in a individual cage out of a pair of INDIGOS. If you have the January 15 issue of the Racing Pigeon Digest,take a look at pages 45,46.47the KK loft you will see three CHOCOLATES (indigos) that look just like your bird. .GEORGE

 

[MaryOfExeter]

It has a tail bar, so it can't be indigo?