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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello, yesterday I collected a young pigeon, she had bad diarrhoea and just seemed a bit off. Ruffled feathers etc. Can fly so no fractures.

After I offered some grains she ate and the droppings improved, still smelled a bit bad but not really diarrhoea.

Yesterday her crop seemed a bit hard, however this morning it feels like an empty bubble, in my opinion it feels a bit too much bubbly? I guess the crop is always a bubble but it just seems bloated. Or could it be because she's very thin so it's more visible?

I will try to attach a video, you can even see it there. She seems okay overall, she's on alert which is good but also seems a bit weak sometimes.

I checked for canker, the beak seems normal nor did I notice a bad smell.

I've read about "sour crop",which I've never seen before in a pigeon. I'm unsure now because I know that canker can also only be in the crop.
I have Spantrix at home and since it's a safe medication, would there be any danger in starting pantrix treatment today to rule out tricho?

I will also send in the faces for analysis.

Unfortunately I'm not confident in my vet here when it comes to cases like this because they didn't diagnose canker on a pigeon before and she almost died because of it,
so I would rather get advice here for now at least.

Thank you!

The video: Loom | Free Screen & Video Recording Software
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
The crop looks a bit extended. If he drinks a lot of water and so have a waterfilled crop, then he might have a yeast infection (sour crop). Put some natural unfiltered apple cider vinegar in the drinking water. 5 ml acv to 1 litre of water. Any chance of getting Nystatin? Don't give any antibiotics for now as this can make things worse.
Got it! He's actually drinking a lot of water. maybe it was water in his crop? I found him twice with a wet beak so he must have drunk a lot... Also, he didn't eat much in the morning so I was worried, I mixed Harrison powder with the ACV mixture, some fauna & flora (Harrison probiotics) and electrolytes.... I made a thin mixture and didn't give him too much because I wasn't sure how well or fast he digests. I also soaked some grains for a few hours, then later I saw him eating a little. I will get Nystatin tomorrow. I got it before for the other pigeon but I think I threw it out because I only used it for the one pigeon that had canker and was worried it wasn't "clean" anymore. I sent in the faces today, so will hopefully get the results the next days.
thanks!
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Actually I will try to get it later today, I found a pharmacy that is open today. Then I can start today. 1ml in the morning and 1ml in the evening, correct?
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
An adult needs about 1 ml twice a day, maybe you can give a bit less. Dosage is 30 000 units per 100 gr birdweight twice a day. Give on an empty crop and wait half an hour before letting him eat.There's a lot of info online reg chickens with this problem, very little info for pigeons. Keep us updated.
Okay, first nystatin dose has been given. Let's see if it improves his condition.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
And the crop?
You mean how it is now or if I got a crop swap? I couldn't do the swap because couldn't bring him to the vet yet but I will try to do it today or tomorrow.
But this morning there wasn't a bubble, it was empty. I'm almost certain that it was only so "bloated" because, like you said, he drank loads of water. He still has bad diarrhoea but he already seemed better this morning. Maybe the nystatin and ACV & probiotics is helping a little already? He's just very thin, so I'll try to give him a bit more Harrison mixture, I kept it to a minimum because I was worried he wouldn't digest it or it would put too much pressure on the crop. Thank you for helping!
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Hello!

I just wanted to update you. We've already done the 2day treatment for coccidiosis and cappilaria. We also did a crop swap because there was some white stuff in his beak, but it came back negative, the only thing they said it shows signs of a dysbiosis and therefore a secondary bacterial infection?

After the first day of treatment his faces were horrifying, full with eggs & worms. I have never seen it that bad with any of my other pigeons. I will attach a picture and apologise in advance.
Unfortunately he didn't eat by himself, I think he didn't feel very well. He was still very alert though. I continued with Harrison & probiotics treatment and I noticed his digestion wasn't well, it was very slow. So I added Pankreoflat, and now after two days it seems to get better and I sometimes see him trying to eat a little bit. He still has diarrhoea, but it could also be because he only eats liquid food?

I think we're on a good path and I hope that he will start eating more by himself in the next days.

Insect Cuisine Foam Soil Rock
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Today I sent in droppings to see if he still has worms. Unfortunately I also found out that he lost 20grams, he's now only 205 :( The vet said it's likely because the parasites cause inflammation etc., I should have fed him more. I will feed him 4x a day Harrison, vitamins etc. and I'll do a smaller amount if necessary, depending on how well he digests. maybe 4x 12ml a day. He was also a bit wobbly, he got some fluids + calcium. For now I will remove the grains because I think it might be too much for his digestive system and will only feed the formula more regularly.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I'm a bit concerned because something seems to be wrong. It first seemed like he was just weak and lost his balance, had struggle walking straight etc. However, it seems more like he's having neurological issues? He looks weird, not normal. I don't know how to describe it but I'm wondering if he could have PMV? Or could it be something else?
He doesn't twist the head, but besides the balance problem he seems a bit shaky and stares in a weird way. he has this expression that reminds me of one of my pigeons who already recovered from PMV.
I put him in a smaller transport box because I thought it's less stressful for him.
I will attach a video of him here: Loom | Free Screen & Video Recording Software
And this is him walking, but it was2 days ago when his coordination problems started. Now I would say it's worsehttps://www.loom.com/share/fe56f6f3e1364451aaf571d1c27ec19f
Is there anything I could do to help him more?

Thank you
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
No I stopped Nystatin after the crop exam came back normal. The crop is also normal, I think at the beginning it seemed bloated because he drank huge amounts of water... His digestion has improved as well, he poops regularly so I try to feed him a bit more because of the weight loss...

I have just discussed this with a friend who has also rescued quite a lot of pigeons, we came to the conclusion that the vet might have prescribed a dose way too high and his neurological problems are because it poisoned him. I will write down the meds + dosage here:

Baycox: 0.15ml per day for 2 days
Panacur 0.18 ml per day for 3 days (but only gave for 2 days).

His weight at time of prescription was 225 gram. A week later he was only 200 gram. he started to get worse roughly after the first treatment, but I thought that he wasn't well because of the huge amount of worms + eggs he had. I never questioned it would come from the meds. I precisely asked the vet if it's oaky to give it at the same time, she said yes. Later I found out from my friend it's often not recommend to give Baycox and panacur at the same time because they are both very strong meds. This vet in particular always mentions that she likes to give high dosages.

What is your opinion about the dose, does it seem normal? This is the first time I'm using Panacur, so I have no comparison...

I've also just read a lot of bad stuff about Panacur on this forum so I wanted to ask if you think it's possible that his neurological problems are caused by the meds? if yes, is there anything I can do to help with the toxicity or detox?
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
do you have any sources that show evidence about this? Because I found a lot about it on the internet and here but it had mainly to do with an overdose. I can’t find examples of a normal dose. I will go to the vet this morning, it was meant to be for another pigeon but I will take him instead and talk about this. I would assume they deny that it’s toxic otherwise they wouldn’t prescribe it so I want to show something 😔 I guess I will also do a blood test and it should show up there as well? I just checked and he is still alive, he was actually sleeping standing on one leg instead of sleeping laying down, maybe it means he has some more strength. But he still had a weird posture and staring. I read that anorexia and lethargy are symptoms of panacur poisoning and this is what he has, he stopped eating the day after the first treatment and hasnt been well ever since. Plus the neurological problems.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
In a thread in this forum I found this

"I just consulted my pigeon formulary and here is what it says for Panacur (fenbendazole): Usual dose is 25-50mg/kg orally once a day for 3 days. Fenbendazole is usually dispensed in a liquid that is 100mg/ml.

That means a 350g bird (I have no idea how much your birds weigh) could receive a range of 0.1 - 0.2ml of fenbendazole once a day for 3 days."

The pigeon weighted 225, I'm not sure if I calculated it correctly but I think the higher 50mg/kg dose would have been 1.1ml per day. he got 1.8ml which is a third more than a high dose.
 

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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
He's at the clinic now to do a blood test. they were busy this morning so asked me to leave him there. I will pick him up this afternoon. She said that if it was because of the deworming it will show up and she also checks for inflammation which should indicate PMV? Unfortunately she didn't seem too worried about the Panacur, it just seems like they don't know it's toxic in that clinic. I will update you later. thanks
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
So his blood results were okay, his liver is normal but he's anaemic. his uric acid is also a bit too high and he's dehydrated. She said that it shouldn't have anything to do with the deworming, also they used panacea 25mg/ml and not 100mg/ml, so that's good. But after what I've read either way it seems to bad to use panacur for deworming. We're still waiting to get the results for the ctc (I think?) where we see the inflammation.
Do you think it's still likely that this is because of the deworming? In my opinion yes, even though they said 0.18ml is a normal dose, but everything started get worse after the deworming, I'm not sure if this is coincidence....
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
So we got the haematology report back and showed signs of hemoparasites such as plasmodium or hemoproteus... Never heard of these but googled and I think it means he has pigeon malaria? "The clinical signs suggestive of pigeon malaria were anorexia, depression, inability to fly, circling movements and episodes of torticollis." this would match with symptoms.
 

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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
Today I went to the clinic but was really disappointed. They were the ones who did the haematology and suggested Avian Malaria, then today the vet just seemed to ignore it and asked about vitamins and diet and wants to give Baytril. I asked if he's not getting anti-malarian meds, she said that anti-malarian meds don#t exist for birds like this. Of course they exist. I know a very kind vet with a lot of pigeon knowledge who sometimes helps me via email because she doesn't live here. she sent me a picture of the recommended meds + dosage for malaria from a pigeon book for vets.

Tomorrow I will go to a different clinic here and I hope they will have a better approach and prescribe the correct meds.

I will not give Baytril, if he has malaria (which his blood results show) his symptoms are caused by a parasite, so I don't understand why someone would prescribe an antibiotic?! It just adds more stress to his already fragile body and won't fix the actual problem.

Here is the correct treatment for malaria in pigeons from the book "The pigeon" by Dr Colin Walker:
Chloroquine 10-25mg/kg by mouth as first dose, then 5-15mg/kg at 6, 18, and 24 hours.
GIVE WITH PRIMAQUINE
Primaquine 0,3-1mg/kg daily for 3-10 days"

So you have to give chloroquine AND primaquine.
Chloroquine is 4 doses in first 24 hours then stop.
Primaquine is 3-10 days, running alongside the chloroquine for the first 24h .
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
I Hope so too 😔 if not I still have the vet who consults me via email as an emergency option, but it all takes so much unnecessary time and I think he really should start the right treatment asap.
i guess Baytril makes sense for some things but I’ve also had the experience that most vets think it’s the one fix for everything…

the email vet once told me this “My training at vet school about pigeons and other small animals with fur, scales etc was more-or-less - Baytril, Panacur, and ask lots of questions about lifestyle and diet. And if in doubt ask a Specialist.” so I think it mostly has to do with a lack of education but then also a lack of motivation to find the correct treatment and I guess no specialist available 🙄 yesterday the vet literally asked me about the diet and vitamins and that I should give vitamin B only every second day instead of every day. It’s very frustrating because we take our time and pay money to get expert advice and I think if I would follow her advice it wouldn’t make things better and probably even worse 😔 I don’t know if Avian malaria is equal to human malaria but if humans don’t get treatment they die… but even if he wouldn’t die, he’s going through so much suffering that could just be improved by treating him correctly.
 

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Discussion Starter · #32 ·
I just wanted to update you. The consultation with the other vet was way better, he seemed to care a lot more. But he also said that the malaria parasite is often found in blood but it usually doesn't show any symptoms. And it's usually not neurological.

he has a leukocytosis which means infection, so antibiotics do make sense, but he said it should be one that can travel to the brain, apparently Baytril doesn't do that even though my email vet said it does. Anyways, he prescribed Bactrim and Gabapentina which I haven't used before.

"Gabapentina is an anticonvulsant medication primarily used to treat partial seizures and neuropathic pain."

He's getting 0.3ml Bactrim and 0.04ml Gabapentina twice a day and today is the third day.

I think he's slightly improving, I notice because he has more strength when I feed him to move his head or beak, but he's still extremely weak, he can barely stand up. I know these things take long and there is also a chance that he will suffer from long-term damage.

this morning I bathed him a little bit because he had a lot of poop stuck on his bottom feathers because he lays down all day. I think he enjoyed it because it was warm and maybe relaxing, also I know they pigeons are generally very clean so being like that must be uncomfortable.

But His condition and suffering bothers me a lot, I cannot stop thinking that it was caused by Panacur. The other vet said that he doesn't like to use Panacur a lot because of its toxicity in pigeons but he does use it rarely, it just needs to be dosed very carefully. But he also said that the dose he got seems normal.

However, last night I did a lot more research about fenbendazole toxicity and even though there aren't too many studies about it almost every experiment mentions bone marrow hypoplasia.

"Bone marrow suppression caused by fenbendazole may result in pancytopenia that can allow the establishment of life-threatening infections"

so bone marrow hypoplasia can cause anemia (which he has) and an infection that could lead to neurological problems like the ones he has? I'm not too familiar with this but maybe someone with more medical knowledge can tell me if it sounds reasonable.

I get that the anemia could also be from the worms or Malaria. But I just don't understand how he can suddenly become so ill and there must be a correlation.

I also learned a lot about fenbendazole dosages, apparently anything from 25mg-50mg per kg is seen normal (but at the same time I found sources that state that this is still too high or shouldn't used at all).

In this study here "Mortality Associated with Fenbendazole Administration in Pigeons" they call 30mg/kg a "moderate dose".

Like I probably mentioned previously I asked the clinic what kind of Panacur they use and they showed me the bottle which was 25mg/ml and said they always use this in small animals like him. However, it was a different vet and I remember the day the other vet filled up the meds and the bottle was on the table, I read the label while I was waiting and it said something like "cattle& horse dewormer" and it was white blue, not green white like the one she showed me. When I google it it seems to be 100mg/ml Panacur. There is obviously a change that I'm going crazy and I don't remember correctly. But would it be normal to even have the 100mg/ml concentration as an exotic vet who mainly deals with small animals?

Another thing that makes me suspicious is that this vet in particular has mentioned that she likes high doses, she has said that almost every time she treated a pigeon of mine, previously it only was meloxicam and Baytril and nothing bad happened. I also know that there are different dosages for different treatments, e.g. a daily dose but higher or a bi-daily dose that is lower.
When she gave us the meds she said the same thing, "this is a very high dose because I want to stop the shedding".

Okay, so if he got the 25mg/ml Panacur and 0.18ml a day for 3 days (I only gave it for 2 days because I thought it would be like Baycox but I'm glad I didn't give another day) he got a total of 4.5mg fenbendazole per day. Based on the dosage recommendations above this wouldn't even be a "lower" 25mg/kg dose. So why would she call it a high dose if it's not really?

If it was 100mg/ml he got 18mg fenbendazole per day, which is definitely a very high dose.

Fenbendazole and Albendazole Toxicity in Pigeons and Doves: Fenbendazole and Albendazole Toxicity in Pigeons and Doves on JSTOR

In this experiment which included 410 pigeons and doves they used 50mg/kg and 100mg/kg, the ones treated with 100mg/kg survived 7.9 days on average and a survival rate of 14.8%. However I'm not sure if the birds got e.g. fed with a syringe, fluids, vitamins and so on to survive. I assume they just let them die.

I thought that it would be unlikely for Gustav survive so long if he got such a big dose? But he got Harrison formula, vitamins and fluid from the beginning, so that would increase his chances.

here are some questions I have and I hope someone can help or has a better understanding:

1. Is it likely for exotic vets who mainly treat smaller animals to have 25mg/ml and the higher dosed 100mg/ml Panacur? Or will 100mg Panacur only be used from "big animal" vets?
2. How can Bone marrow hypoplasia get diagnosed? a biopsy? Is that even possible in pigeons? But even if it is it's probably very painful / a stressful procedure...
3. Any recommendations to help with anaemia? I already supplement with anima strath but is there something else that would help more? I've hear red lentils, but should they be cooked or be raw?
4. Will anaemia or even bone marrow hypoplasia get better by itself with time?
5. studies also mentioned leukopenia as a symptom of fenbendazole toxicity, but he has leukocytosis. Again I have little medical knowledge, but bone marrow hypoplasia can cause infections, so would that mean leukocytosis? Is it possible that leukopenia changes to leukocytosis when he has an infection? I'm sorry if this doesn't make sense or is far fetched.

I hope I'm not annoying or overthinking this, I know this probably doesn't matter because even knowing this will not make his condition better, but it would mean clarity and why he suddenly developed all these symptoms.

Thank you!
 

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Discussion Starter · #34 ·
Can't answer all your questions. I think best will be to continue with the meds and give probiotics and a general vitamin supplement during treatment. Can you get vit B for birds/pigeons?
that's okay, I know it was a lot. I already give Vitamin B once a day as well as some general vitamins. So I guess I'll just have to be patient and hope he gets better with time.... Thank you!
 
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