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Paratyphoid Disease and the Vaccine

70K views 63 replies 36 participants last post by  renabailey  
#1 ·


I have just received from America some Sal-Bac Vaccine now I have been told that if I use this on my race birds they will not perform very well the following season. Will anyone who has used this vaccine give me some guidance.

Regards,
Doogal
 
#2 ·
I hope you bought the following (PMV – 1 Vaccine) – Pigeon vaccine (made by Maine Biological Labs)

Its oil base and is the best available here in the states.

I treat for PMV, Salmonila and POX and in that order. I give the first vacine at weening .... approx. 4-5 weeks old. the second at approx 8-9 weeks old and then give a second round booster starting one month afterwards.

I wouldnt risk flying without it.
 
#4 ·
Hi Doogal,

Not into racing, but thought this link might be of interest to you:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=9505&highlight=Sal-Bac+homers

I would think the protection would be worth it for your birds, although if wanting
more info, the search mode in the toolbar above, or googling in general might give you even more info. There are many folks into breeding/racing here, so I would think you could find some additional info.

Best,

fp
 
#5 ·
Good link to follow for information.

Sal-Bac is probibly the best vaccine for paratyphoid, but its only a portion of the remidy. with the upswing of Circovirus you need to cover all your bases, there is as yet no preventitive treatment for circo.

So you start by giving the birds what treatments you can inorder to prevent them from getting secondary infections. Its the secondary infections (ie pmv, salmonilla, pox, ect...) that will kill them not the circo. the circo will only give the other viruses an opening to attact. So make sure you do preventitive treatment for all three.

At the start of the race season I have never seen any drop in performance, in birds given the treatments verus those that havent been, however by the second or third race your birds are going to come down with everything they have been exposed too. unless they already have the antibodies to fight off the infections.

This is when you see lofts begin to rise to the top ..... their birds are healthy while everyone elses are not only fighting to get home, but are also fighting to stay alive. so by the third or forth race in the season you will see a deffinite difference in performance.
 
#6 ·
lawman said:
I hope you bought the following (PMV – 1 Vaccine) – Pigeon vaccine (made by Maine Biological Labs)

Its oil base and is the best available here in the states.

I treat for PMV, Salmonila and POX and in that order. I give the first vacine at weening .... approx. 4-5 weeks old. the second at approx 8-9 weeks old and then give a second round booster starting one month afterwards.

I wouldnt risk flying without it.
If you are using only the PMV-1 vaccine for pigeons, then all you are vaccinating for is PMV - not paratyphoid. Different virus, different vaccine. Reading through your post, I *think* you mean that you vaccinate for PMV at 4-5 weeks, then paratyphoid/pox at 8-9 weeks, then the PMV booster ?

That is how most people who vaccinate for all three do it, I believe. PMV vaccine itself is a two shot series for YB's.
 
#7 ·
Doogal said:
I have just received from America some Sal-Bac Vaccine now I have been told that if I use this on my race birds they will not perform very well the following season. Will anyone who has used this vaccine give me some guidance.

Regards,
Doogal

I've never heard anything about perfomance the following season... seems a little weird... ? I know of only one person who vaccinates for paratyphoid (we don't see it much, if at all, up here), and her birds are aways at the top of the race sheet, in YB's and OB's.... :)
 
#8 ·
I give my birds PMV and Paratyphoid vaccine, and then booster shots 4 weeks later on both vaccines, young birds only. Birds previously vaccinated get only one shot of each. Master breeder of VF'S also told me that on the paratyphoid vaccine, I need to give it every 6 months. Nice thing about the paratyphoid vacc,it's easier to give than the PMV. I feel like i"m injecting Elmer's Glue when I give the PMV, it's so thick. OUCH !!!:eek:
Daryl
 
#9 ·
Hello White Wings,

No, I follow the advise of two different vets. one here in So Cal. Dr Shetrone out of San Diego and Dr Pascal (also a vet) out of the Netherlands. I start my vacines as soon as the birds are weened. Basically the theory is that the sooner you start the vaccinations the better. you have to wait for the birds to be weened otherwise the parents antibodies will fight off the vaccine and it wont take. so per my regimine, PMV, SAL-BAC, then POX (oil based not water) you have to give them individually not altogether or you wont get the full immunization. I space the vaccines two weeks apart and give boosters for the first two , after the pox has totally cleared up.
 
#10 ·
Hi Lawman

We don't vaccinate for pox or paratyphoid 'up here', just PMV. We've started the "vaccinate immediately on weaning" method in our loft this past couple of years, and noticed a huge difference in YB health. So much so, that one group that didn't get vaccinated as they came out of the breeding loft were noticably less healthy than the one that had been vaccinated right away (hubby was working a ton of overtime, and one group just got moved late one evening...). We vaccinated them as soon as we saw this - and they perked right up!

There is a theory that vaccinating them as soon as they are weaned helps kick-start their natural immune system - which helps protect them from any illness in a small way.

Of note - we don't vaccinate for paratyphoid - but we do feed the breeders/weanlings a pellet that contains sal-bac.
 
#11 ·
Hi White Wings,

Sounds like your doing pretty much the same thing, just doing the Sal-Bac in the form of a pellet rather than a injection. Unfornunately in Southern Cal. there has been a resurgance of Pox, so for the last couple of years I have been giving them preventitive treatment for that too.

Your right about the different rounds, the ones who go through the program deffenitly look and handle better than those who are not inocculated. I personnelly think they fly overall much better during the entire season as well.
 
#12 ·
Why Babies died

Paratyphoid
I have believed for a long time that paratyphoid, or salmonellosis, is more widespread than people are willing to accept. I have even stuck my neck out and stated that I thought it is the rare loft that has no birds infected, at least subclinically, or as carriers, with paratyphoid. Good, healthy birds are fairly resistant to paratyphoid and most loft conditions keep it quiet. For reasons that we don’t understand, it will occasionally just spring up, go wild and reach an epidemic state in a loft.
The organism that causes paratyphoid is a bacterium. It’s classified as a gram-negative rod. This differentiates from other classes of bacteria, and puts it in the same class as some more common organisms. Other bacteria can be present and be considered normal, as long as there’s no disease. With salmonella, you cannot ever consider it normal. Salmonella is a true pathogen. The mere presence of it indicates subclinical disease – paratyphoid.
Salmonella can be carried and spread by rodents, wild birds, or other pigeons. It is passed mainly by their droppings, contaminating feed, but it can be passed other ways, such as in the egg.
On of the most common ways to get paratyphoid in the loft is from infected new pigeons introduced from another loft. You can obtain healthy looking pigeons from another loft, put them in your loft, and they start an infection or become infected. It’s just loft dynamics, and not completely understood. I think strays should never be allowed in the loft, whether it is common pigeons or someone else’s race bird. Segregate them, as well as your own birds that have been lost for several days immediately.
Many outbreaks occur in the breeding loft, late in the breeding season. The birds involved in reproduction reach a weakened state of health because of the severe drain on their body, (1) producing eggs in the female, and (2) producing crop milk in either sex. There is a drain on the body’s immune complexes, or immunoglobulins, during breeding. These are the globulins that are involved in the antibody production. Since so many of these immunoglobulins are incorporated into the yolk and crop milk, it depletes the body’s reserves and makes the immune system more vulnerable.
Classical paratyphoid is often seen in breeding cocks, where a cock gets sick and dies very rapidly. The bird looks fine one day and dead the next. This is a fulminating form that, for some reason, we see more in cocks than in hens. It’s not all in cocks, but it tends to be more prolonged, they often go light and show more classical symptoms including severe weight loss, mucoid “sticky stools, wing boils and liver diseases”.
Other symptoms to look for that make us suspicious of paratyphoid are eggs that seem to “go rotten”. These eggs initially have a developing embryo, but then it dies. These are the eggs that turn black usually. It’s not they are infertile; if they were infertile they would be clear the whole time. The embryo is killed by the infection. The salmonella organism can be on the surface of the egg from being laid by an infected female, or it can actually be incorporated inside the egg, during egg production.
Another classical sign of paratyphoid is youngsters that begin pipping but fail to hatch – “dying in the shell”. This is a major symptom of paratyphoid. It can happen for other reasons, but this should make you suspicious, if you get more than one youngster who can’t complete the pipping process.
Other symptoms to look for with salmonella are youngsters dying in the nest at an early age, especially between 7and 10 days of age. These youngsters usually develop diarrhea and show sighs of dehydration, where the skin gets dark red in color and it loses its healthy look.
Frequently, in a nest of two, one will get sick and die within a few days, while the other one will act perfectly healthy. This is not uncommon with paratyphoid. I think it just means that one did not receive an infective dose. Merely sitting in the nest is not enough to infect it. I don’t think salmonella penetrates the intact skin. I think it is usually ingested.
The other symptoms are sore wing or leg joints, but swelling is not always present, as may believe. It is caused by an inflammation. Salmonella gets into the bloodstream and often localizes in the joint. Classically, the joint that swells is the elbow joint, where you get the typical wing boil. This is very characteristic of salmonellosis or paratyphoid. Sometimes it seems the birds has a tender foot, and will be seen limping around. Often it’s paratyphoid. Other gram negatives such as E. coli and Citrobacter can do this, but the odds are that it’s paratyphoid. Limping can also be caused from physical injury, but if it’s persistent, and if more than one bird is limping, you had better suspect paratyphoid.
Sometimes with paratyphoid, you’ll see tilted head or the twisted neck. A bird with this symptom more frequently has PMV, which can be differentiated from paratyphoid. Paratyphoid can cause micro-abscesses in the brain, resulting in these symptoms. When these birds are agitated, the symptoms don’t worsen. With PMV, when you stimulate the birds, their symptoms become exaggerated. Another symptom common to paratyphoid and PMV is watery droppings, but there is a difference. With PMV, the droppings are clear fluid, which is urine, with squiggles of fairly normal looking feces in it. That’s not true diarrhea. It’s called diuresis.
With paratyphoid, if they develop the diarrhea from, it produces true diarrhea, in which case the stool is actually the liquid part. It usually has a lot of mucous. Sometimes you’ll see little gas bubbles. Sometimes the droppings will have blood, a strange colour and a smell to it, as well.
Other symptoms are weight loss, called “going light”. The two most common things to cause pigeons to go light are paratyphoid and severe worm infestations, especially stomach wall worms, and sometimes, capillaria worms. Worms are easy to rule in or out, and if you can rule them out, odds are it is paratyphoid causing the birds to go light, especially in breeding individuals. Blindness in one eye or both eyes could be a symptom of paratyphoid; so can loss of color in one or both irises.
Trying to identify birds in the loft that are not visibly sick but remain carriers or shedders is extremely difficult. It involves culturing individual pigeons. For some reason, in infected pigeons, salmonella often is difficult to culture out. It’s a fickly organism and you can end up with negative cultures when, in fact, it is still the cause of the disease being investigated. This is further complicated because salmonella is shed intermittently. You can’t take a negative culture to mean the bird is negative for the disease. You have to culture successively, many times, to finally fell comfortable that a bird is not a carrier. It becomes impractical so it’s rarely done.

Prevention
Salmonella can reproduce in the environment. It can live in the liter and soil contaminated with feces. It can live in the environment for a while, but not as well as it can live in the host.
We know that salmonella does not like an acidic environment. By acidifying the environment, it decreases the spread. Sulfur acidifies, so the sodium acid sulfate loft dressings are an aid in the control. Putting alkaline substances down, such as lime, has been suggested in old journal, actually can create an environment conducive to salmonella growth.
Salmonella can be transmitted through drinking water contaminated with feces. A teaspoon of Clorox (household bleach) in the drinking water has been used in lofts that had problems with paratyphoid, and it seems to help arrest the problem. My theory is that the Clorox creates an acid environment in the droppings. Chlorine is excreted through the kidneys, and combined with hydrogen; it makes the urine very acid. This in incorporated in the droppings in the cloaca. The drawback is that Clorox, in all animals, has toxic potential. Personally, I take it out of the water I drink before I drink it. When using bleach in the drinking water never add anything else to it. It is a potent oxidizer and can change other chemicals, sometimes creating toxic substances.
Vaccination is the best aid we have in dealing with paratyphoid. Paratyphoid vaccination cannot give 100% protection, as can PMV vaccination and pox vaccination. Paratyphoid vaccination, because it uses killed bacteria, can only produce a 70% - 80% protective effect.
A booster increases the odds. I recommend, just like I do the PMV, vaccinating all of your young birds as soon as they are all gathered, then vaccinate everything again, just before pairing your breeders.

Treatment
There is no treatment guaranteed to cure paratyphoid. There are some that give treatments a higher degree of success than others. The treatments usually involve a good antibiotic, the best probably being Baytril. The next best is Cephalexin or Amoxicillin. In treating paratyphoid, pigeons should be dosed for a minimum of 10 days and, in an outbreak situation, it helps to vaccinate while they’re on antibiotics. Vaccination does not have a curative affect in birds already infected, although it does stimulate their immune response to salmonella, so it has benefit.
Baytril is fairly harsh on pigeons, especially the liver. For that reason I don’t recommend training hard or racing while birds are on Baytril treatment. Amoxycillin and Cephalexin are easier on the pigeons, but ideally, you should skip a week of training if you are treating. Birds on the race team become poor performers, due to lack of vigor.

In severe outbreak cases, you don’t overcome paratyphoid immediately. You have to “work your way through it.” Sometimes, it takes several years of a good vaccination program, monitoring and having follow up treatments. But with diligence, you can work your way through it and do just fine.
 
#13 ·
upcd said:
Paratyphoid


.......Blindness in one eye or both eyes could be a symptom of paratyphoid; so can loss of color in one or both irises.
Hi Debbie,

I'm curious about this statement in regards to the loss of color in one or both irises. Is that as in a ring of white or light color around the remaining colored portion of the iris, a complete loss of color or whatever other description you could give in this area of your post would be appreciated!

Thanks,

fp
 
#14 ·
Debbie... I don't think I've ever seen you say so much at a single whack before! I agree that it's probably a lot more prevalent than we know and there are enough differences in the strains that it presents a bewildering variety of symptoms. Worse, "vertical transmission" (when the disease starts in the egg) can cause the pathogen to change its character and symptoms. I read recently that L-forms should be treated with either Clindamycin or a combination of Erythromycin and Ampicillin (the older form of Amoxicillin) and the prognosis is still guarded.

Pidgey
 
#15 ·
Greetings

About the article, This was borrowed from a friend Frank Frail an Indain Fantial breeder. I had a roller change color in the eyes. Thought the bird was going blind, but after eye antiboitics. Color was restored. I am not one of many words but if I find a good report then I will bring it over. I will take your Questions over to My Family Site and see if I can get an anwser for you.
 
#16 ·
Some people have problems and some very few. The more out side birds are brought in. The more one shows birds or races birds. They get exposed. If a loft is prone to rodents exposer comes. Once you get it into the loft. Its there. and crops up from time to time. Now The oxine a h that I posted about. sounds to me like it will not only kill the problem But with use it will stop it from coming back. Then the birds are exposed less. Each loft has its sytstem and the birds bred in that loft have there imune system strong for that loft. Take the bird to a different loft. And they can carry desease to it that the other birds are not acustomed to. prevention starts in eveyones loft. And then birds are healthy. You will find some keepers that do poor management and have many sick birds. Stay clear from ever getting such birds from these people. In which often these people are dealers not breeders. Now raecing people expose in crowded transport during the raceseason there loft birds to many other outside birds. So a healthy loft program preventive care should be in place. One of the main problems is over crowding race birds in the loft. Now concepts of air exchange can increase number kept. As long as good perch space is right. Air exchange times Good management sees less sickness. With a vaccine now days less birds show sighns . But people who practice a good program have far less problems and many have never used a vaccine. acv garlic. vit, good feed fresh air sunlight for the loft. rodent protection anmd a key never over feed the birds to the point where spilled feed lays on the loft floor to be soiled and eaten. Plus attract rodents.
 
#18 ·
Vacinating with Salbac

We vaccinate our racers and breeders with the Salbac, PMV, and Pox and have not had a problem with performance following, of course this is after the suggested waiting period you wouldn't want to vaccinate then train, there is normaly a 14 to 28 day waiting period after vaccination that you wait before you start letting the birds out to train. The things that we have noticed is that with the PMV no side effects, the Pox occasionally you will one or two that do not take and so you will get a few pox lesions and those birds are re-vacinated, the Salbac a slight what I will call flu like symptoms for a couple of days about 5 to 7 days after given and then they perk back up, I actually thought that after that time frame the birds looked better and so we continue to use the vaccine on our race birds.

Ellen
 
#19 ·
Worried!

WhiteWingsCa said:
If you are using only the PMV-1 vaccine for pigeons, then all you are vaccinating for is PMV - not paratyphoid. Different virus, different vaccine. Reading through your post, I *think* you mean that you vaccinate for PMV at 4-5 weeks, then paratyphoid/pox at 8-9 weeks, then the PMV booster ?

That is how most people who vaccinate for all three do it, I believe. PMV vaccine itself is a two shot series for YB's.
I figured out theres a difference between PMV and paratyphoid, but the signs my birds got is a little different.
Story:
1st it started with young birds that the 1st one got his head twisted -thats PMV right? But he had bad breath and yellow stuff at the back of his mouth - Canker right? his droppings were dark watery green and smelled(paratyphoid right?), he lost his balance(PMV right), then sat like he could not walk at all, he died about 3 weeks ago. Then his brother/sister, had only lost balance(PMV), then died and his last droppings were white egg white colour which when dried cracked up, it seemed. Then another bird lost flight(?), then kept him for around 3 days, fed him wild-bird seed, he only had the droppings which were egg white colour which when dried cracked up, he only showed those symptoms. Then a White bird who I saw seemed sick so I climbed to catch, I thought at the time PMV which I gave treatment, but he died next morning. I opened his beak to check and no Canker, he never loose balance, only the white cracked up droppings. Then another pet, who the night before was desperate for water, which I gave her, the next day(yesterday) she died. In her house the Droppings were geen(normal) which might have come from her mate. After she died I noticed the white cracked droppings.

Now I'm Worried, I think I am only treating for Canker and PMV. The sign of the birds that die of paratyphoid are the droppings which are white, flat surface and once it dries it breaks up. I'm not sure if it has a smell. The problem is if I notice the white droppings, the next day the birds dead. The birds so far in these cases wanted water mostly. The most recent bird that died was frantic for water and flew up and down which made me think she was fine, because of he mates droppings I never notice her white droppings.

I watched all the birds for a while yesterday, all seemed to eat, which is the test I am using to determine if paratyphoid is present in them.

will someone tell me if my reasonings above are correct. I will ask the vet for Baytril or Cephalexin or Amoxicillin. someone stated that it isnt the cure, but will It help if given to a Infected bird which seems to die the next day. Also should I give it to her mate and others even though they dont seem to have it?
 
#20 ·
Try looking up Circo Virus, Adeno Virus, Young bird sickness, you could have a very serious problem going on, if it is in fact Circo virus then what you are seeing could be a secondary infection to the Circo Virus which is common in the disease and it is quite deadly to pigeons, it would be best if you were able to get one to a state lab to have a necropsy done in order to hopefully stop any further deaths or at least know what you are treating for. In the circo virus it has been found that you should treat with a preventative antibiotics frequently as well as provide elderberry in the water at 2 capsuls to a gallon of water as this will assist in building the imunity up, Circo Virus is similar to AIDS in humans, it attacks the system and makes the bird very vulnerable to secondary illness, until the birds are 6 months old the bursa has not grown together to build the immunity so this makes them a open target for the diseases, as I said before it would be best if you had the necropsy done if possible to see what you are dealing with, Circo Virus can not be determined in a bird that is alive.

Ellen
 
#21 ·
Tayyiba:

No, antibiotics will not 'cure' a bird with PMV - PMV is a virus, and medications do nothing to kill viruses. Antibiotics kill bacteria, that is it.

If a bird dies the day after you start giving it antibiotics - it's not because of the antibiotic - the bird was about to die anyway. All antibiotics will do is help the birds make it through any secondary infections, which often occur due to the weakened condition of the bird.

Circo virus is a possibility. Apparently, it drains the immune system, opening up the birds to a host of other problems, including PMV and canker
http://members.aol.com/duiven/circo.htm

The problem with so many viruses in pigeons is that some of the symptoms from one disease to another are so similar.

PMV can cause all the symptoms you describe - including the excessive drinking http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/diseases/notifiable/disease/pigeons.htm

Yes, fecal matter from PMV infected birds smells - and is dark green and watery. Some birds with paratyphoid will develop neurological problems (twisted neck, off balance, etc.) But that is more common in PMV. Paratyphoid also presents symtoms of wing paralysis, 'boils' on the wing, and stiff legs or joints - often resulting in limping. http://www.wingswest.net/pigeons/health/paratyphoid.html

Paratyphoid is a bacterial infection - and CAN be treated with antibiotics.

Canker requires a different medication altogether. What are you using to treat right now?
 
#22 ·
Pictures

There was lots of rain, we washed the entire yard with detol or savlon(hopefully its acidic)

Theres hardly traces of extreta enywhere. I mentioned Baytil and the 2 other options stated in the article to the bird shop, they wont sell unless on prescription or they have to see the bird, how am I going to take the whole lot, I dont know who's got it!

Someone plz send you email address, this place wont let me upload the pictures cause they too big, its pictures of the extreta and 1 of the birds
 

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#25 ·
I live by Oxine! Its the best I have found for spraying loft, birds, water, nest and you can sure breath alot better after spraying it. So you know its really benefitting the birds. I would like to know where to get a fogger, but I just put it in a spray bottle and spray everything birds included. It is a must to use. I like it more than Nolvasan. I still will wash out my loft with Nolvasan, but Oxine is a must if you just want to spray loft and everything in it.
 
#26 ·
Go to one of the pigeon house websites, Jedds, Siegels, or global and look at the SalBac Vaccine, make sure when you use it the birds are not sick, I have found that after the birds have been given the vaccine that they do get a little down for a couple of days and then they all seem to perk out of it and look great.

Ellen